Real talk: Is it valid to compare vaccine passes to the holocaust?

Houseman

The Actual Hero
Sanctuary legend
Messages
707
I know it's convenient to just grab the easiest comparison that makes your opposition look the worst, and so for both sides, this ends up being nazis.

1/6: "Oh they did a coup just like nazis did!"
Vaccine passes: "oh they're asking for your papers just like the nazis did!"


But is this really valid? Let's talk about it. Let's have a real serious discussion about it.

I'll pretend to be the devil's advocate. How would you answer these questions/objections: (You can answer multiple with a single response)
- "What makes this a valid comparison?"
- "It's not a valid comparison because nobody is being killed for things they can't change!"
- "It's just so that the hospitals don't get overloaded and that people don't die!"
- "Nobody's even taking your rights away. You don't have a right to go to [this place/event]"
- "What about vaccine mandates for public school, huh? Is that wrong too?"

I'll give my answers after other people have answered.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Arch Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
590
First of all, to the people who don't think any jews were murdered in National-Socialist Germany, that is beside the point.
It's the how, not the who, that matters. Please keep that in mind.

Regarding the ten stages of genocide;

#StageCharacteristicsExample
1ClassificationPeople are divided into "them and us".Vaccinated vs unvaccinated, Masked vs maskless.
2Symbolization"When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups..."Reversed with Vaccine-passes, masked vs maskless.
3Discrimination"Law or cultural power excludes groups from full civil rights: segregation or apartheid laws, denial of voting rights".Masks and/or Proof of vaccination required for services.
4Dehumanization"One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases.""Pandemic of the unvaccinated".
5Organization"Genocide is always organized... Special army units or militias are often trained and armed..."Unvaccinated are forced by police into lockdowns, maskless are fined.
6Polarization"Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda..."Social media shaming & MSM calling unvaccinated stupid.
7Preparation"Mass killing is planned. Victims are identified and separated because of their ethnic or religious identity..."Australian Quarantine facility, Canadian Designated quarantine facilites, US Interim Operational Considerations for Implementing the Shielding Approach to Prevent COVID-19 Infections in Humanitarian Settings.
8Persecution"Expropriation, forced displacement, ghettos, concentration camps".Work and/or Housing requiring vaccination/vaccine-passes.
9Extermination"It is 'extermination' to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human".TBD
10Denial"The perpetrators... deny that they committed any crimes..."TBD

This isn't about extermination though. Any casualties will be a "positive" side-effect.
Time will tell if this is simply about profit/great reset, authoritarian control, or climate lockdowns/depopulation. Or all three.
Might also just be stupidity..

I'll pretend to be the devil's advocate. How would you answer these questions/objections: (You can answer multiple with a single response)
1: "What makes this a valid comparison?"
2: "It's not a valid comparison because nobody is being killed for things they can't change!"
3: "It's just so that the hospitals don't get overloaded and that people don't die!"
4: "Nobody's even taking your rights away. You don't have a right to go to [this place/event]"
5: "What about vaccine mandates for public school, huh? Is that wrong too?"
1: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/question/how-did-the-nazis-and-their-collaborators-implement-the-holocaust
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodily_integrity
3: https://www.statista.com/statistics/185860/number-of-all-hospital-beds-in-the-us-since-2001/ (says 2001 but shows 1975-2019)
4: Censorship about covid-19 violates free speech, forced or required vaccinations violates bodily integrity, services requiring vaccine-passes violates discrimination laws, jobs and houses only with vaccine-passes violates segregation laws, medical experimental therapies violates the Nuremburg code.
5: Yes.
 

Houseman

The Actual Hero
Sanctuary legend
Messages
707
I appreciate the effort that went into to citing all those sources. Great post! Thanks!

This seems to be a paywalled source. I can't view any of the statistics without registering an account. The only thing I can view is a blurb saying that the hospital beds decreased from 1.5M to 919K over the years. Is that what you wanted to show?
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Arch Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
590
This seems to be a paywalled source. I can't view any of the statistics without registering an account. The only thing I can view is a blurb saying that the hospital beds decreased from 1.5M to 919K over the years. Is that what you wanted to show?
I was able to expand the info when I visited it at first, but not now. Hmm. It does show graphically what the blurb says though. There was a slight uptick in 2016, but it has generally been a downward trend. So saying hospitals are overloaded doesn't tell all.
 

Arnox

Veteran
Staff member
Founder
Messages
4,184
I don't really need to compare it to anything. There are certain lines that the government just doesn't cross. This is why we have the Bill of Rights, so there would be ZERO doubt as to what the government could and couldn't do. While vaccine passes obviously aren't discussed by the Bill of Rights, the reasons for stripping away rights from people who don't get the vaccine are the exact same as the reasons they try to give for stripping away any of the other rights.

"It's for your SAFETY. We need to protect you."

I swear to fuck, it's always the same excuse, and it's always equally invalid. Rights are rights. End of story. Line does not get crossed for any reason. Yes, even if there's an Ebola pandemic.

For those who don't think so, there's plenty of other countries besides the US to live in.
 

Houseman

The Actual Hero
Sanctuary legend
Messages
707
For me, yes, I think there are plenty of valid comparisons to be made. I got in trouble over on GameFAQS for making a very similar "ten stages of genocide" argument that Vendor made.

For me, it's all about the means, not the ends. It's about how emergency powers and fear-based thinking can be misused.

Do I think they're going to be going door to door, looking the unvaccinated hiding under the floorboards, rounding them up, putting them on trains to camps, and then executing them in the name of public health and safety? Probably not. But are we straying in that direction? Yes, I think so, in some places (like Australia) more than others.

You would have to be a poor student of history indeed to not see how segregating people into "us" and "them", blaming "them" for society's woes, and discriminating against "them" in various ways can lead to atrocities being committed.

Any truly evil dictator who wants to commit atrocities would never just announce what he's doing. A dictator will tell you that whatever is happening is for the greater good, for your safety. A dictator will try very hard to capture your heart and minds so that you'll see the actions of the dictator as good and necessary. A dictator will make you fearful and angry at "them", so that you feel no sorrow when they are taken away or lie dead in the streets. A dictator will amass power under the guise of an emergency, and then never relinquish it.

It's not the specifics of hospitals or vaccine passes or quarantines or health and safety. If this is what you're focused on, you're thinking too small.
It's the pattern of actions which leads us down the road to genocide.

I think all of the above answers my first four questions

"What about vaccine mandates for public school, huh? Is that wrong too?"

I had never thought about it before this pandemic, but now that you mention it, there is something weird about denying a child access to education for the crime of existing in his own body. No one is born vaccinated, after all. Regardless, I am not making judgements about how any of this is "wrong", even if it does closely match the 10 stages of genocide. I am just making an observation.
 

gaijinkaiju

Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Sanctuary contributor
Messages
492
Yeah, within reason.
Do I think the government is going to start killing the unvaccinated? No, that might be a stretch. Then again, thinking we'd get to this point was a strech, so who knows now.
Everything else on that list is already happening now though, so yeah I think it's reasonable to make the comparison

For those who don't think so, there's plenty of other countries besides the US to live in.
yeaahh, have you seen the rest of the world lately? Seemingly everywhere is becoming authoritarian shitholes.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Arch Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
590
Dang, got it on the first post.

I'm sorry, I can't have a serious discussion comparing vaccine passes to genocide for the same reason I can't have a serious discussion comparing sitting in the time out chair to being sent to Guantanamo Bay.
You do know that the genocide was the last and final leg of a long journey, no?
We're also not talking about that specifically, but the holocaust, OR SIMILAR events, in general.
How they come about and how they're implemented.

What you're basically saying is that because it's not genocide or not playing out exactly like the holocaust to the letter, just everything else on the list, removing freedoms and rights, segregation and discrimination, violations of international and domestic laws and codes, it's just fine?
People with such an attitude are those that looked away and helped perpetuate the acts that lead to such an infamous historic result.
 

Houseman

The Actual Hero
Sanctuary legend
Messages
707
Dang, got it on the first post.

I'm sorry, I can't have a serious discussion comparing vaccine passes to genocide for the same reason I can't have a serious discussion comparing sitting in the time out chair to being sent to Guantanamo Bay.
I would be happy to read your response to our arguments, even if you think we're idiots. Nobody learns anything in an echo-chamber, after all.
 

Arnox

Veteran
Staff member
Founder
Messages
4,184
Dang, got it on the first post.

I'm sorry, I can't have a serious discussion comparing vaccine passes to genocide for the same reason I can't have a serious discussion comparing sitting in the time out chair to being sent to Guantanamo Bay.
I agree with Houseman 100% in that you should blast us. I made Sanctuary specifically to facilitate ALL discussion, not just stuff we, or even I agree with.

We need more people in here telling us we're idiots. And before you say you'd be wasting your time, you may find you will convince at least some of us. Hell, I'm pretty open to alternative viewpoints.
 

Drathnoxis

Adherent
Messages
62
I agree with Houseman 100% in that you should blast us. I made Sanctuary specifically to facilitate ALL discussion, not just stuff we, or even I agree with.

We need more people in here telling us we're idiots. And before you say you'd be wasting your time, you may find you will convince at least some of us. Hell, I'm pretty open to alternative viewpoints.
I'm afraid I'm not really one for serious discussion at the best of times, about politics least of all. Now, if you want to have a very silly discussion, that's another matter.
 

Drathnoxis

Adherent
Messages
62
I had never thought about it before this pandemic, but now that you mention it, there is something weird about denying a child access to education for the crime of existing in his own body. No one is born vaccinated, after all. Regardless, I am not making judgements about how any of this is "wrong", even if it does closely match the 10 stages of genocide. I am just making an observation.
Children can't go to school naked either. A shame for all the poor uneducated nudist children out there. Clothes are the mark of the Fascist!
 
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