• For our 10th anniversary on May 9th, 2024, we will be giving out 15 GB of free, off-shore, DMCA-resistant file storage per user, and very possibly, public video hosting! For more details, check a look at our roadmap here.

    Welcome to the edge of the civilized internet! All our official content can be found here. If you have any questions, try our FAQ here or see our video on why this site exists at all!

What Would You Like To See?

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Vendor-Lazarus said:
If that is the only thing you took from that sentence and decided to "switch off", it doesn't exactly look like you embrace diverse thought, nor recognize the problem more and more people have with the extreme left.
It is of course your choice to live in a bubble, but people are also then free to call out your (and their) double-standards.
As well as face the outcome of denying political implications. (Trump).
Look, it's a political insult. That's all it is.

I'm perfectly able to discuss "diverse thought", and the idea that people who don't put up with shit-slinging slurs must be incapable of discussing diverse thought is absolute nonsense.

If somebody is genuinely willing to discuss things maturely, they won't start off by insulting me. If somebody came up to me and began his sentence with "Hey, shit-head!", I'm not going to politely sit and consider his rationale for why I'm a shit-head, either.

Vendor-Lazarus said:
Speaking of political insults, do you also decry the liberal (hah!) use of racist, sexist, misogynist, islamophobe, transphobe,etc,etc,etc,etc. against everyone not far left? or even far leftists that deviate slightly from the manifesto?
The outcome of that is that the word has lost all meaning, and can be applied to just about anyone you disagree with.
There is where your "hate speech" comes into effect and shuts down 'wrong-thinkers'.
...Why has this turned into personal accusation? I don't have to defend myself against personal accusations here; this isn't the topic of the thread.

Vendor-Lazarus said:
Then what do you mean by "hate speech"?
Please elaborate!
Discussion of difficult topics is not, and has never been, hate speech.

I would consider hate speech to be... extensive usage of slurs relating to somebody's innate characteristics, or extensive personal insult based solely on one's demographics. Nothing whatsoever to do with discussing topics. It's personal, not principle.

Of course, this is just a general description, since you asked. I wouldn't suggest that description get taken into forum rules. Moderation needs specificity (or at least more specificity than it had on The Escapist, where moderation was so inconsistent).
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Silvanus said:
I still don't want slurs and personal accusations thrown around without any recourse to a moderation team.
Well, let me ask you a question. Why does it matter that someone calls you a mean name?
 

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Arnox said:
Well, let me ask you a question. Why does it matter that someone calls you a mean name?
Well, because it'll make the forum a less pleasant, more hostile place to be. Presumably we want the forum to be welcoming and pleasant.
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Silvanus said:
Well, because it'll make the forum a less pleasant, more hostile place to be. Presumably we want the forum to be welcoming and pleasant.
But fights happen all the time, online or off. I'm afraid the forum you're envisioning where nobody fights and everybody gets along 100% of the time is impossible. So, knowing that, why is it a big deal that someone calls you a mean name? (By the way, keep in mind, derailing a thread to harass is already against Sanctuary rules.)
 

Monoochrom

Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
275
Silvanus said:
Arnox said:
Well, let me ask you a question. Why does it matter that someone calls you a mean name?
Well, because it'll make the forum a less pleasant, more hostile place to be. Presumably we want the forum to be welcoming and pleasant.
No, what makes a Forum a less pleasant place is when everyone has to put on a facade of faux politeness instead of getting issues with each other out of the way and learning to get along as people.

What are you so afraid of anyway? You do know that fretting about potential insults makes it look like you think your behavior warrants insulting you, right?
 

Signa

Libertarian Contrarian
Sanctuary legend
Messages
764
Can we maybe get the entertainment sub-forum to have sub-sections? I would like to make a post about tabletop rpgs, but it's kinda odd setting it next to threads about music, movies and video games.
 

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Arnox said:
But fights happen all the time, online or off. I'm afraid the forum you're envisioning where nobody fights and everybody gets along 100% of the time is impossible.
That's not the forum I'm envisaging. There's a middle ground. I'm merely envisaging some basic level of respect, which is accomplished easily enough on countless forums (...most of the time).

Arnox said:
So, knowing that, why is it a big deal that someone calls you a mean name? (By the way, keep in mind, derailing a thread to harass is already against Sanctuary rules.)
I never said it was a big deal when somebody calls me anything, and I think the only reason you're describing it like that is to belittle it, not because you're genuinely asking.

Monoochrom said:
No, what makes a Forum a less pleasant place is when everyone has to put on a facade of faux politeness instead of getting issues with each other out of the way and learning to get along as people.
Flinging slurs and personal accusations at one another doesn't "get issues out of the way"; it just breeds resentment.

I'm not asking for faux politeness; I'm not even asking for politeness, really.

Monoochrom said:
What are you so afraid of anyway? You do know that fretting about potential insults makes it look like you think your behavior warrants insulting you, right?
That would be a ridiculous conclusion.
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Silvanus said:
I never said it was a big deal when somebody calls me anything, and I think the only reason you're describing it like that is to belittle it, not because you're genuinely asking.
It's a bit of both, but that's what I think you're conveying here.

How about this. If you could make any change to the Sanctuary rules, what would it be?
 

Monoochrom

Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
275
Silvanus said:
No, what makes a Forum a less pleasant place is when everyone has to put on a facade of faux politeness instead of getting issues with each other out of the way and learning to get along as people.
Flinging slurs and personal accusations at one another doesn't "get issues out of the way"; it just breeds resentment.
My experiences Admining and moderating multiple Forums of varying Sizes tells me you could hardly be more incorrect.

I'm not asking for faux politeness; I'm not even asking for politeness, really.
Yes, you are. You are literally complaining about the non-existent problem of Insults. You need to understand that just like in any actual conversation, a person doesn't have to pretend to be respectful of you. So, to be treated respectfully, you'll have to do so in kind and avoid posting outrageously stupid shit. Do that and you should be golden.

Monoochrom said:
What are you so afraid of anyway? You do know that fretting about potential insults makes it look like you think your behavior warrants insulting you, right?
That would be a ridiculous conclusion.
How so? You are complaining about a literal non-issue as if to pre-emptively cover your ass. See, this is what's great about the status quo here, I don't have to play pretend that I'm super naive and couldn't possibly concieve of you having any ulterior motive in suggesting this.

See, maybe if liberal insulting was going on I could see where you are coming from, as is, all I see is someone complaining that other people could call them out on it if they act like a shithead. And why would you be worried about that if you plan on being a nice and respectful User? :???:
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Signa said:
Can we maybe get the entertainment sub-forum to have sub-sections? I would like to make a post about tabletop rpgs, but it's kinda odd setting it next to threads about music, movies and video games.
That is actually planned once Armadox brings the Lorebound community base over here. Once that happens, I'm going to re-expand the entertainment sub-forum. Unfortunately, in order to do that, Armadox has to create a massive campaign that he promised he would do, so... Yeah.
 

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Monoochrom said:
Yes, you are. You are literally complaining about the non-existent problem of Insults.
Am I? News to me!

Monoochrom said:
You need to understand that just like in any actual conversation, a person doesn't have to pretend to be respectful of you. So, to be treated respectfully, you'll have to do so in kind and avoid posting outrageously stupid shit. Do that and you should be golden.
Do you think that's genuinely how online conversation works in places where there is no moderation? Sensibleness just prevails, and if you're not a dick-head, harassment and racism and shit like that just don't happen?

This is such a rosy, blue-sky image of the internet.

Monoochrom said:
How so? You are complaining about a literal non-issue as if to pre-emptively cover your ass. See, this is what's great about the status quo here, I don't have to play pretend that I'm super naive and couldn't possibly concieve of you having any ulterior motive in suggesting this.
This may shock you, but I'm not suggesting that you have to play pretend anything. I never did.

If I had my way, yes, you'd still be able to accuse me of whatever nonsensical bullshit you've dreamt up, just like you're doing now!

Arnox said:
It's a bit of both, but that's what I think you're conveying here.
Then you're not paying attention.

Arnox said:
How about this. If you could make any change to the Sanctuary rules, what would it be?
Well, as a reference point, look at most high-profile Twitch channels. People will call eachother names, call eachother idiots, etc. You can discuss whatever you want. But most streams worth spending any time in will still have rules against racism/homophobia and harassment.
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Silvanus said:
Well, as a reference point, look at most high-profile Twitch channels. People will call eachother names, call eachother idiots, etc. You can discuss whatever you want. But most streams worth spending any time in will still have rules against racism/homophobia and harassment.
What's the difference between calling someone a bastard and calling someone a faggot or a nigger?
 

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Arnox said:
What's the difference between calling someone a bastard and calling someone a faggot or a nigger?
A "bastard" is a term that, in most places in which it is still used (like London, where I'm from!), is not taken particularly seriously. It's a fairly generic insult. It is doesn't have decades of history of real, harmful prejudice and bigotry behind it.

The other terms do. They don't simply mean that [the user] wishes to insult the other person; they mean that [the user] wishes to express that [the user] despises specific groups of people, doesn't see them as human or worthy of even the most basic respect as a human being. [The user] wants to other them. [The user] intentionally wants to bring up the history of violence associated with that prejudice, which the other person may have personally experienced, as a cudgel and a line of attack.

In my experience-- and I have experienced it directly, yes-- if somebody calls me a faggot, they may very well wish me actual harm. If somebody has hate enough to use that expression, then that's quite a reasonable assumption. Hearing it in the street would make me feel unsafe (and justifiably so); hearing it online doesn't mean I'm in any immediate danger, no... but it means that person wants me to feel that way, and wants me to feel truly unwelcome.
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Silvanus said:
Arnox said:
What's the difference between calling someone a bastard and calling someone a faggot or a nigger?
A "bastard" is a term that, in most places in which it is still used (like London, where I'm from!), is not taken particularly seriously. It's a fairly generic insult. It is doesn't have decades of history of real, harmful prejudice and bigotry behind it.

The other terms do. They don't simply mean that [the user] wishes to insult the other person; they mean that [the user] wishes to express that [the user] despises specific groups of people, doesn't see them as human or worthy of even the most basic respect as a human being. [The user] wants to other them. [The user] intentionally wants to bring up the history of violence associated with that prejudice, which the other person may have personally experienced, as a cudgel and a line of attack.

In my experience-- and I have experienced it directly, yes-- if somebody calls me a faggot, they may very well wish me actual harm. If somebody has hate enough to use that expression, then that's quite a reasonable assumption. Hearing it in the street would make me feel unsafe (and justifiably so); hearing it online doesn't mean I'm in any immediate danger, no... but it means that person wants me to feel that way, and wants me to feel truly unwelcome.
Language changes though. Faggot used to be an offensive word but then it just grew into a general insult that had nothing really to do with someone's actual sexual preferences. It wasn't until somewhat recently that people started making it an offensive word again. I remember back in the late 90s/early 00's that fag and faggot was passed around like candy and nobody gave a shit. Fag/Faggot and gay were mutually exclusive. Now, it's a bad evil word again. Why? Because people literally decided to be offended by it.

And you know what, yeah. Bastard is kind of light by today's standards. How about asshole or dickhead? Also, let's remember that bastard used to be a legitimately offensive insult back in the day. So why does that suddenly get a free pass but faggot is totally and completely off-limits? Derogatory terms are used derogatorily, and it makes no sense whatsoever to say, "Oh, you can insult me this way, but heaven forbid if you use THAT term."

 

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Arnox said:
Language changes though. Faggot used to be an offensive word but then it just grew into a general insult that had nothing really to do with someone's actual sexual preferences. It wasn't until somewhat recently that people started making it an offensive word again.

I remember back in the late 90s/early 00's that fag and faggot was passed around like candy and nobody gave a shit. Fag/Faggot and gay were mutually exclusive. Now, it's a bad evil word again. Why? Because people literally decided to be offended by it.
That's really not the case here. I suspect it's not the case in most places, from what I've heard.

I'm not just arbitrarily deciding to be offended, and neither are most gay people who take exception to that. When I've heard slurs of that severity in the real world, it's been a strong indicator that I'm not safe, that I'm specifically being targeted. That's from direct experience. This is not arbitrary.

If people want to use it online, that's the experience they're evoking. I can only assume they're doing so on purpose, because people know the history of that term.

Arnox said:
And you know what, yeah. Bastard is kind of light by today's standards. How about asshole or dickhead? Also, let's remember that bastard used to be a legitimately offensive insult back in the day. So why does that suddenly get a free pass but faggot is totally and completely off-limits? Derogatory terms are used derogatorily, and it makes no sense whatsoever to say, "Oh, you can insult me this way, but heaven forbid if you use THAT term."
It used to be, yes. You have to use some kind of judgement, obviously. You always do.

It gets a free pass because nobody in their right mind genuinely believes that that word actually has the same meaning today.
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Silvanus said:
It gets a free pass because nobody in their right mind genuinely believes that that word actually has the same meaning today.
You mean because people have chosen not to be offended by it anymore.
 

Signa

Libertarian Contrarian
Sanctuary legend
Messages
764
Hooo boy, I totally passed over this conversation going on in here. I have plenty to say or respond to, but for the interest of staying on topic of forum changes, I just wanted to point out what this is, on the macro level, in case anyone wasn't paying attention. What we have here is the beginnings of a progressive infiltration into our community, and and Silvanus, intentionally or not is playing envoy. It always starts like this: whether it's gaming, comics, Magic CCG, Warhammer, or atheism. It starts as a plea for making the hobby/movement into a more welcoming place. No one should ever be mean to each other. you guys are decent people, why would you want to allow meanness? Most reasonable people agree, there is no need for meanness, and we do want to be welcoming to newcomers in our group. But then after everyone agrees to the rules, then the real problems start happening. People that are a little rough around the edges get pushed out because they are too passionate and are off putting to the newcomers. Then you get some more people who are cordial, but argue for the passionate people's sake, but then they get accused of wanting the unpleasantness, so they get branded with unsavory titles (ie, nazi, bigot, white supramasist) until the whole community collapses in a purity spiral.

The thing is, it's hard to argue against civility, and if this community grows to the size of The Escapist at its zenith, the argument will be even harder to ignore because you will have some actual problems to address at that point.

Tl;dr: too soon Silvanus, too soon.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Arch Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
936
Signa said:
Hooo boy, I totally passed over this conversation going on in here. I have plenty to say or respond to, but for the interest of staying on topic of forum changes, I just wanted to point out what this is, on the macro level, in case anyone wasn't paying attention. What we have here is the beginnings of a progressive infiltration into our community, and and Silvanus, intentionally or not is playing envoy. It always starts like this: whether it's gaming, comics, Magic CCG, Warhammer, or atheism. It starts as a plea for making the hobby/movement into a more welcoming place. No one should ever be mean to each other. you guys are decent people, why would you want to allow meanness? Most reasonable people agree, there is no need for meanness, and we do want to be welcoming to newcomers in our group. But then after everyone agrees to the rules, then the real problems start happening. People that are a little rough around the edges get pushed out because they are too passionate and are off putting to the newcomers. Then you get some more people who are cordial, but argue for the passionate people's sake, but then they get accused of wanting the unpleasantness, so they get branded with unsavory titles (ie, nazi, bigot, white supramasist) until the whole community collapses in a purity spiral.

The thing is, it's hard to argue against civility, and if this community grows to the size of The Escapist at its zenith, the argument will be even harder to ignore because you will have some actual problems to address at that point.

Tl;dr: too soon Silvanus, too soon.
This! So on point.

Also, I'm an actual bastard. Though not a bastard. (I was born out of wedlock.)
 

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Arnox said:
You mean because people have chosen not to be offended by it anymore.
It's not that simple, no-- almost never was a simple yes/no decision actually made. Words develop context through decades of history and historical use and association.

And the historic use and association of one happens to be severe discrimination and violence.

So, some people want to intentionally invoke that, as a line of attack-- and it's considered a great unalienable right for them to do so?

Signa said:
Hooo boy, I totally passed over this conversation going on in here. I have plenty to say or respond to, but for the interest of staying on topic of forum changes, I just wanted to point out what this is, on the macro level, in case anyone wasn't paying attention. What we have here is the beginnings of a progressive infiltration into our community, and and Silvanus, intentionally or not is playing envoy.
"Infiltration"? Are you kidding me? Already the accusation that I don't belong here, because I have a different fucking view on this?

Signa said:
It always starts like this: whether it's gaming, comics, Magic CCG, Warhammer, or atheism. It starts as a plea for making the hobby/movement into a more welcoming place. No one should ever be mean to each other. you guys are decent people, why would you want to allow meanness? Most reasonable people agree, there is no need for meanness, and we do want to be welcoming to newcomers in our group. But then after everyone agrees to the rules, then the real problems start happening. People that are a little rough around the edges get pushed out because they are too passionate and are off putting to the newcomers. Then you get some more people who are cordial, but argue for the passionate people's sake, but then they get accused of wanting the unpleasantness, so they get branded with unsavory titles (ie, nazi, bigot, white supramasist) until the whole community collapses in a purity spiral.
The idea that if we agree to some rules, therefore we'll eventually end up agreeing to loads of unrelated rules, doesn't make any sense. It's the slippery slope at its most egregious and nonsensical.

Countless communities have some low-level form of moderation, or disallow hate speech, without also disallowing mere rudeness or people who are "rough around the edges". Hell, the vast majority of online communities have not collapsed into this spiral.

Take a look at your average Twitch sub/follower community. Insults, impoliteness, blah-de-blah, even a deal of shitposting. Yet you'll be hard-pressed to find one that doesn't have some dis-allowance for explicit racism. Loads of perfectly pleasant places.

We managed to outlaw assault in the real world without also outlawing rough-housing and flicking rubber bands.
 

Monoochrom

Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
275
You have, multiple times now.

Perhaps that wasn't what you were trying to convey in your nonsensical whining to get stricter rules, but you very much did.
 

Silvanus

Adherent
Messages
43
Monoochrom said:
You have, multiple times now.

Perhaps that wasn't what you were trying to convey in your nonsensical whining to get stricter rules, but you very much did.
You have poor reading comprehension.

Maybe I should have added a caveat; whenever I referred to moderation, should've added [of hate speech/ harassment]. Now, see, I thought that wouldn't be necessary, since I specifically said what I was talking about in the first several posts, which is enough for anybody who was paying attention.
 

Signa

Libertarian Contrarian
Sanctuary legend
Messages
764
Silvanus said:
Signa said:
Hooo boy, I totally passed over this conversation going on in here. I have plenty to say or respond to, but for the interest of staying on topic of forum changes, I just wanted to point out what this is, on the macro level, in case anyone wasn't paying attention. What we have here is the beginnings of a progressive infiltration into our community, and and Silvanus, intentionally or not is playing envoy.
"Infiltration"? Are you kidding me? Already the accusation that I don't belong here, because I have a different fucking view on this?
No one is saying you're unwelcome. If I thought So i wouldn't have made sure to link you back at the 'pist. I'm discussing an ideological infiltration. You are still welcome to hold your ideology, even be possessed by its ideas, but I'm saying it's not allowed to take power over the authority structure here.

Signa said:
It always starts like this: whether it's gaming, comics, Magic CCG, Warhammer, or atheism. It starts as a plea for making the hobby/movement into a more welcoming place. No one should ever be mean to each other. you guys are decent people, why would you want to allow meanness? Most reasonable people agree, there is no need for meanness, and we do want to be welcoming to newcomers in our group. But then after everyone agrees to the rules, then the real problems start happening. People that are a little rough around the edges get pushed out because they are too passionate and are off putting to the newcomers. Then you get some more people who are cordial, but argue for the passionate people's sake, but then they get accused of wanting the unpleasantness, so they get branded with unsavory titles (ie, nazi, bigot, white supramasist) until the whole community collapses in a purity spiral.
The idea that if we agree to some rules, therefore we'll eventually end up agreeing to loads of unrelated rules, doesn't make any sense. It's the slippery slope at its most egregious and nonsensical.

Countless communities have some low-level form of moderation, or disallow hate speech, without also disallowing mere rudeness or people who are "rough around the edges". Hell, the vast majority of online communities have not collapsed into this spiral.

Take a look at your average Twitch sub/follower community. Insults, impoliteness, blah-de-blah, even a deal of shitposting. Yet you'll be hard-pressed to find one that doesn't have some dis-allowance for explicit racism. Loads of perfectly pleasant places.

We managed to outlaw assault in the real world without also outlawing rough-housing and flicking rubber bands.
And most of those communities that hosted those ideas crumbled in some way. You can call it a slippery slope all you want but I cited 5 broad communities that have been broadly damaged by such ideas. I get how you want to create a bubble of safety in the community you're joining, but how about you trust us instead of getting preemptively defensive. Like I said, it's too soon to be putting up the barricades.
 

Houseman

Zealot
Sanctuary legend
Messages
1,068
Signa said:
It starts as a plea for making the hobby/movement into a more welcoming place. No one should ever be mean to each other. you guys are decent people, why would you want to allow meanness? Most reasonable people agree, there is no need for meanness, and we do want to be welcoming to newcomers in our group.
Thankfully, it seems that nobody else wants the same things that Silvanus wants.
 
Top