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Lay off The Last Jedi already. Holy hell...

Arnox

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Not directed at anyone here in particular at all, but man, the hate for this movie on the 'net is getting INSANELY irritating. I'm about out of patience now for calm discussion about it.
 

gaijinkaiju

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I hope the ending where
Ren basically gets tossed into a hole
turns out to be true, just because I think that would be hilarious. On a more serious note, never seen the new trilogy. Can't say I'm interested enough either, especially if the rumours turn out to be true.
 

Arnox

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I hope the ending where
Ren basically gets tossed into a hole
turns out to be true, just because I think that would be hilarious. On a more serious note, never seen the new trilogy. Can't say I'm interested enough either, especially if the rumours turn out to be true.
The Force Awakens is merely alright. The Last Jedi was really great. Rise of Skywalker, I have no idea at all.
 

Battousai

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The problem is that Star Wars fans really cannot let people enjoy things, if it doesn't fit into their strange head canon. They are just films ffs, let people enjoy their 2 hour sci fi fantasy movies. The movies are not directed specifically at those hardcore fans, they are made for people that are easily entertained by blockbusters and children. They make a lot of money out of that, marketing and selling toys and other merchandise. So what a bunch of sad adult whiners living vicariously through this fantasy film franchise have to say about these new movies interfering with their canon and destroying their world has no bearing at all, the movies are not theirs or made for them. On another note I did enjoy both of them, not cinematic masterpieces or anything but they were entertaining and I look up to watching the next one of course, I've always been a Star Wars fans and really the only one of them that you could consider a cinematic masterpiece is Empire Strikes Back. The rest is just pure sci fi fantasy fun, and should not be taken so seriously, just enjoy it.
 

M0nke3

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The problem is that Star Wars fans really cannot let people enjoy things, if it doesn't fit into their strange head canon. They are just films ffs, let people enjoy their 2 hour sci fi fantasy movies. The movies are not directed specifically at those hardcore fans, they are made for people that are easily entertained by blockbusters and children. They make a lot of money out of that, marketing and selling toys and other merchandise. So what a bunch of sad adult whiners living vicariously through this fantasy film franchise have to say about these new movies interfering with their canon and destroying their world has no bearing at all, the movies are not theirs or made for them. On another note I did enjoy both of them, not cinematic masterpieces or anything but they were entertaining and I look up to watching the next one of course, I've always been a Star Wars fans and really the only one of them that you could consider a cinematic masterpiece is Empire Strikes Back. The rest is just pure sci fi fantasy fun, and should not be taken so seriously, just enjoy it.
I agree, I mean The Last Jedi definitely threw me for a loop, but who's to say it would've been better the way people wanted it to be. Star Wars is a big world with way more interesting stories to tell anyways, be it through the novels, video games, and what have you. Whatever happens in the movies, I'm gonna go and watch it regardless... Star Wars plays well on the big screen and goes good with a large popcorn and soda, lol.
 

Arnox

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Finally, a video that sums up all my arguments for TLJ beautifully.

 

Arnox

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No. Go ahead and like it, but the Movie has so many problems that even if you really really liked it, pretending it's objectively great is simply asinine.
Watch that video. It explains everything.

Also, long time no see.
 

Monoochrom

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Watch that video. It explains everything.

Also, long time no see.
I'll give it a watch, I doubt it will change my mind on anything though, I generally don't shy away from other opinions, so whatever the Video has to say, chances are I've heard it before.

Also, I wouldn't have even said anything if you'd just left it at "good". It's "great" that goes too far for me.

And regarding not seine me around. Well, I do actually check in every few days under normal circumstances. I just wasn't in the Mindset for anything but shitposting lately, so I just avoided any community where I might care how people see me.
 

Monoochrom

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So, I watched your Video. As expected it didn't manage to change my Mind on anything, nor do I find the arguments made in the Video to be particularly competent, let alone convincing. He has for instance plenty of his own Headcanon going on and also simply ignores anything that would refute it.

The Movie has lot's of problems and the problems it does have don't surprise me considering that Johnson had to have a Scene in Looper to give himself an out for the plot being nonsensical.

In short: Seeing what a Movie was going for doesn't mean the Movie actually pulled it off. That's all that really needs be said regarding the Video, but if you wish I'll gladly explain to you why TLJ was stupid in a lot of ways. And I don't hate TLJ btw. I just don't think it is all that good, it's ok in my eyes, nothing more.
 

Arnox

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So, I watched your Video. As expected it didn't manage to change my Mind on anything, nor do I find the arguments made in the Video to be particularly competent, let alone convincing. He has for instance plenty of his own Headcanon going on and also simply ignores anything that would refute it.

The Movie has lot's of problems and the problems it does have don't surprise me considering that Johnson had to have a Scene in Looper to give himself an out for the plot being nonsensical.

In short: Seeing what a Movie was going for doesn't mean the Movie actually pulled it off. That's all that really needs be said regarding the Video, but if you wish I'll gladly explain to you why TLJ was stupid in a lot of ways. And I don't hate TLJ btw. I just don't think it is all that good, it's ok in my eyes, nothing more.
And what do you think of the OG trilogy?
 

Monoochrom

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And what do you think of the OG trilogy?
I find ANH kinda forgettable. Empire is pretty good and my personal favorite and ROTJ is kinda like Empire, but with unnecessary stuff like the Ewoks that pull it's quality down. All of those Films however also have segments that I would skip.

I also think that a lot of people give the PT more crap then it deserves. I always was confused by the reaction to midichlorians considering we already knew there were Power Levels involved (Force can't be strong in any one person or bloodline if such concepts don't exist).

See this is honestly what often annoys me about your side of the TLJ debate, this weird assumption that anyone saying that Rian Johnson fucked it up must have some kind of massive blind spot regarding the OT or the rest of Star Wars. Not the case, TLJ also isn't bad because of it concepts but because the execution is super flawed and poorly thought out specifically BECAUSE Johnson seems to think it's fine to ignore logical inconsistency if it serves the plot. I and obviously many other people, disagree.

Best example is still Rey. Anakin and Luke are Force Jesus and his Son respectively, how exactly is ANYONE that is not also a Force Jesus pulling off far more impressive feats with far less explanation? -> The feats are not the problem, the problem is that it gets no reasonable explanation which quickly leads to the conclusion that she is as powerful as she is because "Current Year!" and "Vagina". And what they've decided to do in the regard now ALSO doesn't fix this issue.

Understand, the ST is not hot garbage, but it is also nowhere near what it could have been and seemingly for all the wrong reasons.
 

Arnox

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it's fine to ignore logical inconsistency if it serves the plot.
And this is what annoys me most about the TLJ complaints. Most of them that have been given against TLJ apply to the OG trilogy as well as the PT. Some complaints more than others.
 

Monoochrom

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And this is what annoys me most about the TLJ complaints. Most of them that have been given against TLJ apply to the OG trilogy as well as the PT. Some complaints more than others.
1. So what? That doesn't actually change anything.

2. Such as?

3. And since the actual argument you are making here is "Why then make a big Deal out of TLJ?". I have to ask, are whatever examples you can think of as egregious or can even been fairly compared considering the context that these Movies are coming out over 40 years later and being made by what is one of if not THE largest (because I'm just too lazy to check) Media Company on the planet?

Because all that shit and the current Zeitgeist are all playing into this. It matters.
 

Arnox

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are whatever examples you can think of as egregious
Yes. Holy hell, yes. The only thing that's stopping me from putting out a HUGE list of problems inherit in the OG trilogy is laziness. (I still like the OG trilogy BTW. Most of it.)

or can even been fairly compared considering the context that these Movies are coming out over 40 years later
It wasn't actually THAT long ago, film making wise. And these problems were noticed even back then too.

Ultimately, I give you more of a pass because your critique is more fair than the other critiques I've seen. But even so, I've discussed all of TLJ's supposed problems with people AD NAUSEAM And I've seen very few legitimate complaints. Most of them are just misunderstandings that people don't want to be corrected on because "didney awful", and the rest don't actually bring them film down enough for me to call it bad.

... I mean, they are pretty awful, but not because of TLJ. It's like the one thing they did really right but it doesn't seem to matter.
 

Monoochrom

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Yes. Holy hell, yes. The only thing that's stopping me from putting out a HUGE list of problems inherit in the OG trilogy is laziness. (I still like the OG trilogy BTW. Most of it.)
Then give me a short list. Honestly, I can't think of many direct flaws. Not because they aren't there or anything, it just really isn't that fresh in my mind so that most of what I could tell you without any kind of prompting would be "I find part x boring". And I'd especially like to see what flaws you consider shared.



It wasn't actually THAT long ago, film making wise. And these problems were noticed even back then too.
Considering neither you nor I were as much as a twinkle in their fathers eye some 40 years ago, I'm gonna say that it is a pretty significant amount of time from either of our perspectives.

Ultimately, I give you more of a pass
Don't. This is what I find fun. And we are just talking about a Movie, we'll still be Internet Friends.

because your critique is more fair than the other critiques I've seen.
I try.

But even so, I've discussed all of TLJ's supposed problems with people AD NAUSEAM And I've seen very few legitimate complaints.
I think that when it comes to things like this, it's hard to get anything that could be called illegitimate barring outright lies (even a misunderstanding is just that, a misunderstanding). Even if someone's complaint is "Purple-Hair Lady is a bitch that reminds me of the worst third-wave feminists." -> Fair enough to me. It's pretty much just saying they find the Character unlikable, which conceptually I agree with.

Most of them are just misunderstandings that people don't want to be corrected on because "didney awful", and the rest don't actually bring them film down enough for me to call it bad.
See, this is where I personally have issues. Like not with you, but with the ST (I haven't seen the last one yet btw, I just don't care about spoilers and know the general gist of what happens). I feel that they were very vague with a lot of the stuff to the point where I've seen a lot of people that will argue along the lines of "oh, this means x, you misunderstood" -> In such cases I often found myself thinking "seems either of you could be right".

... I mean, they are pretty awful, but not because of TLJ. It's like the one thing they did really right but it doesn't seem to matter.
Maybe it's just my personality, but I don't find Disney any worse then most other corporations, they are just huge. That arguably is THE worst part. Meh, at the same time, that size allows for certain projects in the first place. Star Wars probably would have otherwise been relegated to Video Games and Comics exclusively for the foreseeable future. So even if I think the ST has a lot of missed potential, Disney buying Star Wars still means that the likelyhood of getting a really good series of Movies is way higher then without them.

Also, my opinion but I know the Internet at large would agree, the MCU or even just Endgame are a more impressive feat then TLJ.

Also also, I just noticed that I inadvertently called TLJ bad in my last post, disregard that. Like I said, I don't think it's bad, there are just several things in it that to me come across as poorly done. For instance, I also don't see where people are coming from when they pretend nothing would ever lead Luke to where he was in TLJ, at the same time, the way he tosses the lightsaber is very annoying to me, no real gravitas, flippant, that's not how someone would actually do that, it was done that way as a joke and I find it neither fitting nor funny. Or why does he aggressively drink the blue milk, that looks ridiculous and even considering his situation...why would he be acting outright spiteful towards Rey? I think a lot of times it's really the little things and that a lot of people just aren't very good at articulating what exactly was throwing them off and took them out of the Movie.
 

Arnox

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Then give me a short list. Honestly, I can't think of many direct flaws. Not because they aren't there or anything, it just really isn't that fresh in my mind so that most of what I could tell you without any kind of prompting would be "I find part x boring". And I'd especially like to see what flaws you consider shared.

Considering neither you nor I were as much as a twinkle in their fathers eye some 40 years ago, I'm gonna say that it is a pretty significant amount of time from either of our perspectives.
Just starting off with A New Hope, they don't shoot the escape pod down even though the chances of accidental discharge are incredibly low. Vader wades into battle when he should be back on the Death Star. Ben gives Luke a lightsaber without telling him what it does exactly, which is a MAJOR safety hazard. Could be that Luke had already heard of them though so I guess I can discount that. Stormtroopers somehow find out about Luke and the Death Star plans on Tattooine. Then they massacre his family because... Who knows? They could have used them as leverage. Death Star tractor beam controls can only be reached via an INCREDIBLY unsafe ledge over a chasm. Then there's the infamous Stormtrooper marksmanship. The Star Destroyer only sends a couple fighters out to stop their escape. The method of approach to the exhaust vent of the Death Star is ridiculous. The aiming systems are kinda ridiculous.

And I think I'll stop there. lol

BTW, my father is also a Star Wars fan. He was there when Star Wars was first released, and even he liked The Last Jedi.
 
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Monoochrom

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Just starting off with A New Hope, they don't shoot the escape pod down even though the chances of accidental discharge are incredibly low. Vader wades into battle when he should be back on the Death Star.
Any particular reason why he should be on the Death Star? Yeah, the escape pod is obviously a plot convenience.

Ben gives Luke a lightsaber without telling him what it does exactly, which is a MAJOR safety hazard. Could be that Luke had already heard of them though so I guess I can discount that.
Agreed. That IS a bad idea. However, it does kind of demonstrate that Luke has a knack for getting ahead of himself. Ben could have been assuming that Luke would examine the thing a little closer before flipping the on switch. But yeah, it's silly.

Stormtroopers somehow find out about Luke and the Death Star plans on Tattooine. Then they massacre his family because... Who knows?
Wasn't the implication that they had went after the Jawa Crawler, finding out about Owen purchasing the Droids, therefore interrogating Owen and Beeru? That explains how they know about Luke. They kill them because they are the bad guys and because story wise Luke needs to have that road block removed. But as I recall, they seemingly would have to look into the script to know that they are looking for droids.

And using them for leverage, that's just not how the Empire rolls, they are about control.

Death Star tractor beam controls can only be reached via an INCREDIBLY unsafe ledge over a chasm.
Yeah, and Empire personnel is treated as utterly replaceable. It's dumb though, yeah.

Then there's the infamous Stormtrooper marksmanship.
Sure, but it is pretty consistent across the entire series for the bad guys.

The Star Destroyer only sends a couple fighters out to stop their escape. The method of approach to the exhaust vent of the Death Star is ridiculous. The aiming systems are kinda ridiculous.

And I think I'll stop there. lol

BTW, my father is also a Star Wars fan. He was there when Star Wars was first released, and even he liked The Last Jedi.
Don't really recall enough of the other stuff to comment.

I don't know that I'd say I dislike TLJ either. I just don't like some of the stuff in it. My Father feels the same. So, there's that.I'd go for the tie-breaker with my Brother, but he hasn't gotten around to seeing it xD
 
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