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What are your thoughts on Islam and the people that follow it?

Signa

Libertarian Contrarian
Sanctuary legend
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783
I'm far from an Islamic scholar. I don't have the patience to read through any large religious texts, be it Islamic, Christian, or Jewish. But I do feel like I've seen enough in the world and listened into enough conversations over my lifetime to get a decent feel for how a faith works.

So what are your thoughts on the religion? What does it teach that you can see value in? What else have you seen that you would discard immediately? Are there any "patch notes" you would introduce to fix said problems? Do you know any followers of the faith, and how do you relate with them?

I had a recent conversation with my brother about this, and we had an absolutely fascinating amount of agreement and disagreement on the topic, so I was curious what everyone else thinks.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Arch Disciple
Sanctuary legend
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964
I see basically no redeeming qualities in the teachings of Islam at all, and no patch notes would survive the stonings, beheadings or falls from the roof/balconies. Even the majority of the moderate muslims think countries they've fled to should follow sharia law. Their practice of taqiyya and overall avoiding the kafir while building invasive minarets just shows their total disregard for anything but their religion as the end all and be all, despite what it caused in their homelands, from which they've "fled". Women, LGB, Jews, christians, atheists, and spiritual/agnostic can never live in peace with this militaristic off-shoot sect of the abrahamic faith.
 

Arnox

Master
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Founder
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5,384
Even the majority of the moderate muslims think countries they've fled to should follow sharia law.
[Citation needed]

this militaristic off-shoot sect of the abrahamic faith.
I don't think Islams have a monopoly on extremism. This toxic behavior is inherent to any country that doesn't have its shit together. For Taqiyya, apparently that only applies if the practitioner is in imminent danger of violence.

People don't need religion in order to be shitheads, although it is usually a convenient little excuse for them to do so.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Arch Disciple
Sanctuary legend
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964
[Citation needed]

This is the only study done on this topic, back when it still could just about be done. Before they stopped acknowledging ethnicities. Far enough removed from 2001/11/09. This is before the 2014-15-16 mass immigration. Before the murder of the French and Danish comic authors. Before the infamous UK grooming gangs. Before the riots in France and Germany. Before the out-of-control trucks. Before the 55 no-go zones in Sweden. Before Sweden became Europes Rape capital. Before we started having shootings, bombings, and arson (from none-existant to daily). Before the sharia courts in Sweden, UK, Canada, etc. I've worked in Stockholm with these people. I've visited them in their areas and homes. I've heard the Minarets call to prayer.

I don't think Islams have a monopoly on extremism. This toxic behavior is inherent to any country that doesn't have its shit together. For Taqiyya, apparently that only applies if the practitioner is in imminent danger of violence.

People don't need religion in order to be shitheads, although it is usually a convenient little excuse for them to do so.
I never said they have a monopoly on extremism.. But if you're thinking that'll excuse them from doing the majority of extremism in the west, you're sadly mistaken. This toxic behavior is all Quran, as that what they're following. Just like ye old Crusaders and Witch-hunters back in the Dark Ages. christians managed to mellow out by not taking the bible literally. In an ironic way, the bible is less important to them now. Muslims are still stuck back in the 1400's (which even their calendar shows). That they even have their own Cairo Human Rights, separate from everyone else should clue you in.
 

Battousai

Brother Sharp
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I don't really care if you want to believe in the existence of a God or supreme being or Allah as long as you don't try to shove it on my face it's none of my business. Organized religion however is a fucking shit show no matter which religion you follow, Islam just tends to be one of the more extreme ones overall in their teachings, the few Muslims I have interacted with have all been decent and courteous people overall but they take their duties as Muslims seriously and have shown open disdain for anyone that doesn't follow their way of living or morals. The overall attitude I've seen is that they want you to respect their religion, way of life, culture etc. etc. but they will in no way do the same for you because it goes against what they have been taught.
 

Arnox

Master
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"Generally, supporters of sharia are most comfortable with its application in cases of family or property disputes. In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith."

Also,

"Among Muslims who support making sharia the law of the land, most do not believe that it should be applied to non-Muslims."

So there are extremist Muslims out there, certainly, but it's not the norm, and there's lots of extremist/fundamentalist Christians out there as well.
 

Vendor-Lazarus

Arch Disciple
Sanctuary legend
Messages
964
"Generally, supporters of sharia are most comfortable with its application in cases of family or property disputes. In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith."

Also,

"Among Muslims who support making sharia the law of the land, most do not believe that it should be applied to non-Muslims."

So there are extremist Muslims out there, certainly, but it's not the norm, and there's lots of extremist/fundamentalist Christians out there as well.

Like I said, this was before the current polarization. Before Sweden considered using military against the Muslim mafia. Before Muslim parties starting popping up for candidacy in elections in countries. Before cellars turned into unofficial sharia courts. Before the many mosques and minarets were built. Before Daesh. Here's a more current example I found: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/inte...lieve-sharia-law-should-be-applied-in-country but you must understand that most of these are made in their own language, French, German, Spanish, etc. The English-based media won't touch it. Lets see how Libya and Niger do today: http://web.archive.org/web/20181204...parlors-in-jigawa-state-seize-alcohol-drinks/ & https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/04/us-libya-law-idUSBRE9B315820131204/ ..would you look at that. How's it looking for UK, US, Germany, Austria, Australia, and Sweden? https://newsvoice.se/2019/01/tyskland-legaliserar-barnaktenskap/ & https://samnytt.se/kommunrapport-shariapoliser-och-somaliska-regler-vardag-i-lilla-nykoping & https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/tolk-uppmanade-muslimer-att-inte-rosta & https://samnytt.se/muslimsk-gruppering-patrullerar-new-york-i-kopia-av-polisbil & https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng-press#{"itemid":["003-6234980-8105265"]} & https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ed-alcohol-threatened-stab-non-believers.html & https://newsvoice.se/2018/07/sharia-dominerar-nationell-lag/ ..How's it looking globally? https://lucris.lub.lu.se/ws/portalfiles/portal/134386584/Disputationsupplagan_Egyptson_10feb.pdf

You're again trying to equate the absolute minority of christian extremists with the absolute majority of muslim extremists. That shit don't fly, and it's downright appalling and insidious to even attempt to excuse their actions by minimizing it.
 

Arnox

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Like I said, this was before the current polarization. Before Sweden considered using military against the Muslim mafia. Before Muslim parties starting popping up for candidacy in elections in countries. Before cellars turned into unofficial sharia courts. Before the many mosques and minarets were built. Before Daesh. Here's a more current example I found: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/inte...lieve-sharia-law-should-be-applied-in-country but you must understand that most of these are made in their own language, French, German, Spanish, etc. The English-based media won't touch it. Lets see how Libya and Niger do today: http://web.archive.org/web/20181204...parlors-in-jigawa-state-seize-alcohol-drinks/ & https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/04/us-libya-law-idUSBRE9B315820131204/ ..would you look at that. How's it looking for UK, US, Germany, Austria, Australia, and Sweden? https://newsvoice.se/2019/01/tyskland-legaliserar-barnaktenskap/ & https://samnytt.se/kommunrapport-shariapoliser-och-somaliska-regler-vardag-i-lilla-nykoping & https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/tolk-uppmanade-muslimer-att-inte-rosta & https://samnytt.se/muslimsk-gruppering-patrullerar-new-york-i-kopia-av-polisbil & https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng-press#{"itemid":["003-6234980-8105265"]} & https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ed-alcohol-threatened-stab-non-believers.html & https://newsvoice.se/2018/07/sharia-dominerar-nationell-lag/ ..How's it looking globally? https://lucris.lub.lu.se/ws/portalfiles/portal/134386584/Disputationsupplagan_Egyptson_10feb.pdf

You're again trying to equate the absolute minority of christian extremists with the absolute majority of muslim extremists. That shit don't fly, and it's downright appalling and insidious to even attempt to excuse their actions by minimizing it.
Minimizing it? I think I already made my position on terrorists very clear. Anyone who harms innocent civilians is a waste of air who needs to be shot in the head and put in a shallow grave. I don't know how much more I can maximize that without perhaps including mandatory torture before death as well. In any case, extremism is extremism. It's all bad. Doesn't really matter what the source is. The solution is still the same. Violence can also definitely solve conflicts as well, but it should be the last resort.

Another thing to keep in mind, not just for Islamic faiths but in general, are false-flag operations.
 

Signa

Libertarian Contrarian
Sanctuary legend
Messages
783
The circle I'm having trouble squaring is finding the proper mindset and language to accommodate the good Muslims I have met while also acknowledging all the overwhelming number of ghastly incidents that Vendor is able to cite.

From Page 14 of the Global Terrorism Index
267

People don't need religion in order to be shitheads, although it is usually a convenient little excuse for them to do so.
This is the balanced take I want, but it completely undersells the above data. It just isn't enough for me to talk fairly about the problem. Any way I try to frame it, it's either throwing good people under the bus, or telling people to let their guard down to what is a significant threat.

Communists are also a significant problem, but a distant second once you add up all the Islamic organizations.
 

Arnox

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This is the balanced take I want, but it completely undersells the above data. It just isn't enough for me to talk fairly about the problem. Any way I try to frame it, it's either throwing good people under the bus, or telling people to let their guard down to what is a significant threat.
Alright then, that's fair. In that case, I would just go back to an age-old saying. "Innocent until proven guilty." Regardless of trends, we must still evaluate people on the individual level, not on the group level.
 
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