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"Ocarina of Time is overrated... "

Arnox

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I just wanna post what I wrote in reply to someone just now.

User: Ocarina of Time is overrated and Hollow Knight is better. Change my mind.
Me: Oh boy oh boy, you're gonna get it.

When OoT first came out, there was NOTHING like it. Not even the other Zelda games were that much help. The transition to 3D was a huge deal. But not only did they contend with that, they needed to completely construct from scratch the 3D look and feel of Hyrule, from the Forest Temple to Ganon's Castle. Every cultural aspect needed to be constructed and added in. And if that all wasn't enough, they had to work around the space limitations of the N64 cartridge. They then took these challenges and did even more with it. They constructed places that are iconic and hold up even to this day. They constructed music that has inspired countless musicians. Simple yet so distinct and beautiful. They created full real-time combat that was fast, responsive, intuitive, and balanced. It was a system that would rightly be copied to numerous different games from Devil May Cry to World of Warcraft. They poured hours of work into deciding and constructing each item to be put into the game. And then they constructed the world to take good advantage of each item in its own way, whether through combat or the environment. They then constructed a story that perfectly matched its targeted userbase, being an allegory for growing up, realizing your potential, and taking responsibility. And all this on the then-graphical-powerhouse, the N64.

I could probably talk about even more things that made the game so insanely good, but I think this is a good place to leave it for now.
 

Arnox

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Why would anyone compare OoT and Hollow Knight? They have nothing in common.
Basically, I said before this that though I'm sure HK was a great game, it just doesn't reach the tier of being one of the absolute best such as OoT and UT99.

EDIT: They replied.

"Okay, but you're completely leaving out how in the process of making things 3D they also lost the open ended feel of the original and Link to the Past. Side content barely exists in OoT compared to those earlier games. Saying the locations "hold up to this day" sounds a lot like nostalgia to me, because some locations are pretty uninteresting and don't look great. Examples include Jabu Jabu's Belly, because womb levels are rather overdone and some parts of it are mostly covered in a single blurry texture that's barely recognizable as flesh, or the Water Temple, which is a chore to get through without a walkthrough and some parts of it are extremely bland looking being mostly dull grey bricks. What the heck do you mean "they created full real-time combat"? You're telling me no other game existed before that with combat that wasn't slowed down or turn based? And the sword combat controls fine, but having to stand still to use the bow makes it not work as an option in most encounters, and the combat itself isn't that interesting against most enemies. The strategy for a ton of them is just "hold up shield until enemy attacks and then counter-attack". The combat system is barely alike to DMC or WoW, by the way. DMC is fast paced and focused on long combo attacks with specific timing for different buttons, while WoW is an MMO and the combat is more about knowing what skills and spells work best in what situations rather than trying to dodge enemy attacks or knowing when to strike."

Will respond later.
 
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Monoochrom

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Here's the thing though. Hollow Knight probably is better in a lot of ways. But like I said, it's a non-sensical argument to make, they have nothing in common and are separated by a lot of time. Hollow Knight profits from everything that came before it. Ocarina was in and of itself a trail-blazer in the early 3 D days. So, yeah, Hollow Knight is practically guaranteed to be the more complete Version of what it's developers intended. But Hollow Knight put back into that context wouldn't have been as good and Breath of the Wild is the closest thing to a modern OoT, which having both I find Breath of the Wild far better all things considered, despite liking both.

Oh and I didn't really consider LttP very open ended and with the original one could also refer to it as "early game design with no significant direction for the player at all" or "a Nintendo Power Game".
 

Battousai

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Not overrated imo, it was ground breaking at that time of course. The thing is that everyone saying these things looks at it from today, 23 years later, and is making a comparison with present day games. Even using the retro style games like Hollow Knight as point in comparison, which makes no sense since they are 2 different kinds of games anyway. OoT has of course not held the test of time too well, nostalgia wise it is still a fun game to play, but every time someone talks about it from the nostalgia perspective you get these kind of people who tell you its overrated because they consider that you are basically sucking the game's dick riding out on its former popularity and your nostalgia for the past.

Case in point: game is not overrated, its way past its prime and a lot of people are unfairly comparing it to present day games that clearly might have taken an inspiration from it. Comparing it to a game that was released 20 years after it and that shares none of the gameplay, visual, or story styles is pointless and unfair.
 

Ogoid

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Gotta agree with Monoochrom here - it's a nonsensical comparison. Aside from the fact both games were released almost 20 years apart, they're not even in the same genre. Hollow Knight is a Metroidvania, Ocarina of Time is... well, a Zelda.

Plus, I gotta be honest... after a year or so of playing almost exclusively Metroidvanias, I think HK is, in fact, kinda overrated.

Don't get me wrong, it's a visually gorgeous, extensive, extremely well-crafted and rewarding game; in fact, I'd have a hard time trying to find any actual faults with it. That said... much like the Joker movie, I'm left scratching my head in confusion at the sheer level of praise it seems to get from most people. Yeah, it's good - really good, even... but BEST GAME EVAR good? Yeah, I really, honestly don't see it.
 

Arnox

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Here's my response:
I will assent that we are starting to get into subjective territories when we talk about world quality, and while you're still probably gonna disagree with me, I can just tell you, I replayed OoT, and while obviously the game wasn't as great with a modern perspective and also having played it before, I still firmly believe it's a solid RPG and holds up very well. Not every single level is a winner, no, but even the bad ones aren't actually that bad at all. Even the Water Temple has some clear highlights. Jabu Jabu also has the pretty neat Baranade boss fight.

As to the combat, you're completely missing my point. Those games built off of the foundation of targeting in third-person that OoT set up. I will also agree that once you truly get the hang of it, you can completely run right the fuck over enemies in OoT, but you must consider:
1. The game was built for adolescents.
2. There was nothing else like it at the time, so the developers couldn't do anything super advanced like what Ninja Gaiden Black and Devil May Cry did. The audience just wasn't used to this kind of combat yet.
3. Link's just generally a really powerful guy who can take a fuckton of punishment. You could replace him with a sentient main battle tank that has the Triforce of Courage, and it would still be a nerf.
 
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