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An Analysis of Suicide Methods

Arnox

Arnox

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THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT OF SUICIDE. SUICIDE IS A ONE-WAY TICKET AND THERE IS NO GOING BACK. SUICIDE SHOULD BE YOUR ABSOLUTE BOTTOM-OF-THE-BARREL LAST RESORT. DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR LIFE BECAUSE YOU HAD A BAD DAY OR EVEN A BAD YEAR. REACH OUT TO OTHER PEOPLE. GET HELP HOWEVER YOU CAN.

I'm going to post some suicide hotlines below, but please remember that these come with a disclaimer that the hotlines below may do a very inadequate job of helping you. These are posted out of respect for the site members who have major concerns about this.


THE SANCTUARY SITE TEAM ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES, DEATH, OR ANY MANNER OF HARM THAT MAY COME FROM FOLLOWING ANY INSTRUCTIONS IN THIS THREAD. WE ARE NOT MEDICAL EXPERTS AND DO NOT PRETEND TO BE.

ONCE AGAIN, THERE IS NO RETURNING FROM THIS. OPEN YOUR EYES. CONSIDER ALL YOUR OPTIONS. CONSIDER HOW THIS WILL TEAR APART THOSE CLOSEST TO YOU. YOUR LIFE IS NOT YOUR OWN. THIS WILL BE THE LAST WARNING I WILL GIVE.

Before we start, I feel I need to talk about why this guide/analysis is even being posted in the first place. Sanctuary is a place where we investigate the unknown. The not-talked-about. We stare into the deepest pits and we do not flinch. Further, we as a human race must progress. To progress requires knowledge, and knowledge is power. Power to create, to save, to change, and to destroy. The second thing is that this knowledge is not some secret confidential information. All pieces of information below could be gathered through a 5-second Google search and some basic logic. The third thing is that, as much as we all very understandably may not want to admit it, there ARE still a few situations where suicide is justified. For example, towards the latter part of terminal cancer. And the fourth and final thing is that some people may actually be comforted and assuaged by simply knowing that the option of suicide is ready and available to them. As long as it's available, might as well just see where life goes from here, just for the hell of it, and so, the decision is put off.

And so, without further ado, let's look at an overview of the methods ordered from worst to best.

NOT RECOMMENDED:
- Electrocution
- Falling
- Asphyxiation

MAYBE:
- Cutting
- Firearm

RECOMMENDED:
- Fentanyl
- Sleeping pills and alcohol

Electrocution

Pretty self-explanatory. Methods include a metal utensil in an active electrical socket or a plugged-in and turned-on toaster dropped into a bathtub filled with water. This method is very unreliable (some people have survived literal lightning bolts) and may cause permanent damage if you survive.

Falling

As in falling from a great height to a hard surface below. Again, self-explanatory. Methods include jumping off of a skyscraper or jumping off of a tall enough bridge. Like electrocution, this can be very unreliable and a gruesome way to die. Potentially incredibly painful and WILL cause permanent damage if you survive. Probably more reliable than electrocution though.

Asphyxiation

As in depriving yourself of oxygen for long enough through physical means. If I recall correctly, it takes around 5-10 seconds of solid choking before loss of consciousness occurs. Resources required for this are both low and at the same time high. The usual method for this is a kreh loop or a non-slip loop knot at a high enough point, the same knot at the end, then stand on a chair or bucket with the loop around your neck and then jump off. I think this method is unoptimal though. This obviously requires that you know HOW to tie such a knot, and if you mess up the process somehow, you could survive and cause permanent damage to yourself. It also requires that you have enough height and something above you to securely tie the rope to. If you are in a cramped prison cell, this will not work.

How-Do-You-Tie-a-Non-Slip-Loop-Knot_jpg.png


You could also go for asphyxiation through diving into deep water and keeping yourself under long enough to pass out. This may be harder to set up initially, but I think this would have more reliable results than the rope. May work well if you're on a deserted island with no resources and zero hope of rescue, as remote a possibility as that is.

Cutting

Now finally, we come to something with pretty reliable results and easy set up. The method for this is to slice down your wrists with an edge (the sharper, the better), fully parallel to your tendons. DO NOT SLICE ACROSS YOUR WRISTS. This will not only fail to work well but mess up your hand should you survive. Some people recommend doing this in a filled bathtub as it's supposedly more painless, but I don't know about that. Might just be a movie myth.

This method has the advantage of only needing a sufficiently sharp object to execute properly and has reliable results as long as nobody is able to resuscitate you in time with donor blood. It is a messy way to die though and it requires some mental fortitude to effectively slice yourself that deeply. Not everyone will have the stomach for that.

Firearm

This method is probably the quickest and most guaranteed way to kill yourself, but it has its own disadvantages. The method is to take a loaded firearm, aim it at your head, and pull the trigger. MAKE SURE TO AIM DIRECTLY AT THE BRAIN SO THE BULLET WILL GO RIGHT THROUGH THE LEFT AND RIGHT BRAIN LOBES. IF YOU MISS, YOU WILL SURVIVE AND BE MISSING A PART OF YOUR FACE. MAKE SURE THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ONE IN THE PATH OF THE BULLET WHEN IT EXITS YOUR SKULL. This is usually done with a handgun of some sort but can also be accomplished with a long gun as well. That's not recommended though as it's obviously much more awkward. Beyond that, this is probably the most messy way to go and the most traumatizing for others to see, and you can forget about an open-casket funeral. And even beyond all that, you might be in a country where acquiring a firearm is impossible or really difficult. In the end, this method really should not be used unless you absolutely have to, but... It does definitely work.

Fentanyl

Fentanyl is very deadly at even very low doses, and at this time, this drug is getting pushed like mad in the US by every single shady dealer from here to Florida. Super cheap to make, kinda cheap to buy (about $150 for a gram it seems, which is easily enough to kill you), extremely easy to overdose with, and the overdose is a fully painless experience, often compared to immediately going to sleep. You better make sure you take enough though because if you survive, you're probably going to have a pretty damn major addiction to this drug. The one issue with it (and it is a large one) is that it does require you to go through a black market seller in order to obtain it, and that's just a giant pain in the ass. If you know where to get it though, just take as much of it as you can, and as long as someone doesn't get to you in time with a dose of Narcan, you'll be thoroughly dead. If you really want to go nuclear overkill with it, you could take it with alcohol, but it's really not necessary in the slightest as long as you take enough fentanyl, which really should not be hard. Oh, and one more note. The fentanyl will kick in within a matter of seconds. It really does work extremely fast.

Sleeping pills and alcohol

WARNING: I was not able to fully confirm just how reliable this combination is. There was a post on Reddit of someone saying they tried this and were able to survive it, but this could be either, one, someone lying and trying to prevent suicides, or two, the person not taking enough alcohol and sleeping pills together. In any case, I've seen a few news stories where this combination was definitely successful in killing someone.
-
Assuming you can't or don't want to obtain fentanyl, the next best thing and by far the most accessible way is to combine sleeping pills with alcohol. And yes, you MUST take the sleeping pills with alcohol. Current day sleeping pills like Tylenol PM are rather hard to overdose with. You can do it but it's not reliable at all. With the alcohol though amplifying the sleeping pill's effects, you should be out very quickly. Chug something incredibly alcoholic like vodka or Everclear then take as many pills as you can. Of course though, you will need to be 21 or over to purchase the alcohol.

If you see any errors in this guide, PLEASE LET ME KNOW AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Thank you.
 
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gaijinkaiju

gaijinkaiju

Lord Inquisitor
Sanctuary legend
Sanctuary contributor
Messages
614
i wasn't going to reply to this thread, but you know what i'm going to because i think its a stupid, pointless thread.
Arnox said:
If you see any errors in this guide, PLEASE LET ME KNOW AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Thank you.
Click to expand...
I'm about to.

1) You say you don't endorse suicide, yet you have not only provide a list of what you'd recommend, but also a guide on how to tie a noose, how to slit you wrists and how to overdose on pills.

2) You're choices are shit. Fentanyl? really? Cutting your wrists? why not just slit your throat? Here's a bunch of other options you've completely ignored for whatever reason
  • Exit Bag Method
  • Carbon Monoxide poisoning
  • Self-immolation
  • Any variation on stabbing
  • Ingesting poison or venom
  • Death by cop
3) Going to reiterate my first point again, You say you don't endorse suicide, yet you have not only provide a list of what you'd recommend, but also a guide on how to tie a noose, how to slit you wrists and how to overdose on pills.

4) you don't even attempt to provide a helpline, or any resource against suicide so i'll do that for you
If you're not in the anglosphere, sorry but i'm not going to try decipher non-English sites

5) This is a shit analysis. What are you basing you're ratings on? What sources are you using to compare rates & effectiveness of differing methods? What source suggests people are using fentanyl to commit suicide?

6) This feels like you're trying to be edgy by "analysing" suicide. 2edgy4me.
 
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Drathnoxis

Drathnoxis

Devotee
Messages
231
gaijinkaiju said:
i wasn't going to reply to this thread, but you know what i'm going to because i think its a stupid, pointless thread.

I'm about to.

1) You say you don't endorse suicide, yet you have not only provide a list of what you'd recommend, but also a guide on how to tie a noose, how to slit you wrists and how to overdose on pills.

2) You're choices are shit. Fentanyl? really? Cutting your wrists? why not just slit your throat? Here's a bunch of other options you've completely ignored for whatever reason
  • Exit Bag Method
  • Carbon Monoxide poisoning
  • Self-immolation
  • Any variation on stabbing
  • Ingesting poison or venom
  • Death by cop
3) Going to reiterate my first point again, You say you don't endorse suicide, yet you have not only provide a list of what you'd recommend, but also a guide on how to tie a noose, how to slit you wrists and how to overdose on pills.

4) you don't even attempt to provide a helpline, or any resource against suicide so i'll do that for you
If you're not in the anglosphere, sorry but i'm not going to try decipher non-English sites

5) This is a shit analysis. What are you basing you're ratings on? What sources are you using to compare rates & effectiveness of differing methods? What source suggests people are using fentanyl to commit suicide?

6) This feels like you're trying to be edgy by "analysing" suicide. 2edgy4me.
Click to expand...
This. This is thread is stupid and can only cause harm.

Arnox, delete this, it's an embarrassment to the site.
 
Arnox

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,320
Drathnoxis said:
This. This is thread is stupid and can only cause harm.
Click to expand...
gaijinkaiju said:
i wasn't going to reply to this thread, but you know what i'm going to because i think its a stupid, pointless thread.
Click to expand...
Yes, good. We need discussion. We need debate.

By the way though, remember, gaijin, that we ARE a website dedicated to freedom of speech. I literally call this site the edge of the civilized internet. That's not just words. At times, we are going to discuss edgy things. That's just what we do. If you see threads you disagree with, threads that provoke a strong reaction from you (that aren't trollbait), then please. Reply to them. Tear them apart. I need people that can tell me I'm fucking retarded. We all do. Sanctuary needs people that disagree and offer a fresh perspective. We discuss, we progress, we build, and we grow.

Alright, back to the topic at hand.

gaijinkaiju said:
1) You say you don't endorse suicide, yet you have not only provide a list of what you'd recommend, but also a guide on how to tie a noose, how to slit you wrists and how to overdose on pills.
Click to expand...
This is all already fully explained in the guide.

Before we start, I feel I need to talk about why this guide/analysis is even being posted in the first place. Sanctuary is a place where we investigate the unknown. The not-talked-about. We stare into the deepest pits and we do not flinch. Further, we as a human race must progress. To progress requires knowledge, and knowledge is power. Power to create, to save, to change, and to destroy. The second thing is that this knowledge is not some secret confidential information. All pieces of information below could be gathered through a 5-second Google search and some basic logic. The third thing is that, as much as we all very understandably may not want to admit it, there ARE still a few situations where suicide is justified. For example, towards the latter part of terminal cancer. And the fourth and final thing is that some people may actually be comforted and assuaged by simply knowing that the option of suicide is ready and available to them. As long as it's available, might as well just see where life goes from here, just for the hell of it, and so, the decision is put off.
Click to expand...
And in fact, I forgot another fifth reason. Not talking about this is not actually going to prevent anyone from committing suicide. If they don't find what they want here, they'll find their info elsewhere. And very quickly too.

gaijinkaiju said:
You're choices are shit. Fentanyl?
Click to expand...
Yes, gaijin. Really. Fentanyl. And it's not even close to being as ridiculous as some of the other things you've listed.

The methods selected are a combination of methods that are popularly known and methods that are actually optimal that may or may not be as well known. (I probably should have added that.) There are literally a million ways to potentially kill yourself. You're really gonna get on my ass because I didn't add death by snake venom?

gaijinkaiju said:
4) you don't even attempt to provide a helpline, or any resource against suicide so i'll do that for you
Click to expand...
Also already addressed. I would definitely have added one, but people have talked over and over again about what a shit experience they had with them.



Perhaps you misunderstood me to say that there are NO suicide hotlines whatsoever. No, I mean that the ones that are there currently tend to exacerbate things rather than solve them.

gaijinkaiju said:
5) This is a shit analysis. What are you basing you're ratings on? What sources are you using to compare rates & effectiveness of differing methods?
Click to expand...
Admittedly, some of these, like electrocution, were not as seriously considered as others. But that's why I left that important notice at the bottom to please contact me if anyone finds anything wrong with these. I suppose I could have posted more sources, but keep in mind, beyond the basic national suicide statistics, there aren't really any hard numbers behind specific methods that I know of. And those statistics are going to report deaths for methods, yes, but that number is not actually super helpful unless we also know the rate of failures alongside it as well. Obviously, many, many medical websites are not going to give out rates of reliability in suicide methods. They're either going say something can be fatal or not and that's it. The best way to gauge reliability then is to try to determine just how much of a blow to the system a certain method would be. Taking five sleeping pills at once is not going to be nearly as fatal as just shooting oneself, and etc.

gaijinkaiju said:
What source suggests people are using fentanyl to commit suicide?
Click to expand...
Fentanyl deaths by overdose are a massive issue right now. Just do a quick search and you'll find articles in 5 seconds, literally, talking about what a national crisis it is. And finally, it's easily very well known that due to how potent Fentanyl is and how easy it is to mess up dosages, fatality is pretty much assured past a certain (very, very small) dose, assuming someone doesn't get to you in time with Narcan.

gaijinkaiju said:
6) This feels like you're trying to be edgy by "analysing" suicide. 2edgy4me.
Click to expand...
See above.
 
Arnox

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,320
Sorry for the double-posting.

I think I FINALLY found a topic that actually provokes a strong reaction out of this site. Ya'll have lately gotten very... I wouldn't say jaded because that's not correct, but you all have definitely grown a thick skin. I like that.
 
Drathnoxis

Drathnoxis

Devotee
Messages
231
Arnox said:
Yes, good. We need discussion. We need debate.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but we don't need guides and analysis on specific methods with pretensions of authority.

Arnox said:
THE SANCTUARY SITE TEAM ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES, DEATH, OR ANY MANNER OF HARM THAT MAY COME FROM FOLLOWING ANY INSTRUCTIONS IN THIS THREAD. WE ARE NOT MEDICAL EXPERTS AND DO NOT PRETEND TO BE.
Click to expand...
And no. You will be responsible. If someone sees this thread and uses the information you provide to attempt to kill themselves you will be responsible. You will also be responsible for any subsequent suicides by the victim's loved ones that happen in response, because suicide doesn't just end with the victim. Just saying you won't be doesn't cause it to be true. It doesn't matter if that information is present elsewhere, you are perpetuating it and will be responsible for any harm that comes from that.

Arnox said:
I need people that can tell me I'm fucking retarded.
Click to expand...
You're fucking retarded. What's next, guides on how to do a school shooting or make easy bombs from household ingredients?
 
gaijinkaiju

gaijinkaiju

Lord Inquisitor
Sanctuary legend
Sanctuary contributor
Messages
614
Arnox said:
This is all already fully explained in the guide.
Click to expand...
you have put a list of methods in order from most likely to least likely to succeed. If i was a suicidal person, i'd take that as a recommendation that pills are the best method to go with, seeing as you've rated it the most likely to succeed.

Arnox said:
And in fact, I forgot another fifth reason. Not talking about this is not actually going to prevent anyone from committing suicide. If they don't find what they want here, they'll find their info elsewhere. And very quickly too.
Click to expand...
Just because they can find the information elsewhere, doesn't mean you need to compile a list for them. or provide advice on how to do it.

Arnox said:
Also already addressed. I would definitely have added one, but people have talked over and over again about what a shit experience they had with them.



Perhaps you misunderstood me to say that there are NO suicide hotlines whatsoever. No, I mean that the ones that are there currently tend to exacerbate things rather than solve them.
Click to expand...
No, I understood what you meant. A service might be shit, but its better than nothing. Rather than offer them something, anything positive, you've given them advice on how to end their life.
"I know you're feeling suicidal bud, but some people have had bad experiences with helplines so instead here's a guide on how to tie a noose, how to take pills or how to slit your wrists. Its good to know you've got choices"
And the whole "you need to be 21 to buy alcohol" is bullshit. if someone underage wants alcohol, they'll find a way to get some.

Arnox said:
Yes, gaijin. Really. Fentanyl. And it's not even close to being as ridiculous as some of the other things you've listed.
Click to expand...
Please, enlighten me with your sources that people are using fentanyl to intentionally kill themselves. Unlike fentanyl, methods like the exit bag and carbon monoxide are methods people currently use, mostly the former. Also note, how i didn't tell you what you need, nor how to enact those methods.

Arnox said:
You're really gonna get on my ass because I didn't add death by snake venom?
Click to expand...
Why not? Venomous snakes are a serious problem in some countries. Alot of snake species can kill with small doses. (much like fentanyl). I thought you were analyzing suicide methods?

Arnox said:
The methods selected are a combination of methods that are popularly known and methods that are actually optimal
Click to expand...
Again, a recommendation of these methods.

Arnox said:
I suppose I could have posted more sources
Click to expand...
You didn't post any sources. period. And no, saying "a quick google search" doesn't count as a source.

Arnox said:
Admittedly, some of these, like electrocution, were not as seriously considered as others. But that's why I left that important notice at the bottom to please contact me if anyone finds anything wrong with these. I suppose I could have posted more sources, but keep in mind, beyond the basic national suicide statistics, there aren't really any hard numbers behind specific methods that I know of. And those statistics are going to report deaths for methods, yes, but that number is not actually super helpful unless we also know the rate of failures alongside it as well. Obviously, many, many medical websites are not going to give out rates of reliability in suicide methods. They're either going say something can be fatal or not and that's it. The best way to gauge reliability then is to try to determine just how much of a blow to the system a certain method would be. Taking five sleeping pills at once is not going to be nearly as fatal as just shooting oneself, and etc.
Click to expand...
Why do we even need to have a discussion on suicide reliability in the first place, outside of being edgy. Talking about certain methods being more "reliable" than others is only going to do more harm than good (i've already made my point on the lack of helplines you've provided)
If you wanted to analyse suicide, why not talk about why certain demographics are more likely to commit suicide than others? why not analyse the impact of lockdowns on suicide attempts? what about youth suicide rates?

Arnox said:
Fentanyl deaths by overdose are a massive issue right now. Just do a quick search and you'll find articles in 5 seconds, literally, talking about what a national crisis it is. And finally, it's easily very well known that due to how potent Fentanyl is and how easy it is to mess up dosages, fatality is pretty much assured past a certain (very, very small) dose, assuming someone doesn't get to you in time with Narcan.
Click to expand...
An overdose, unless intentional, is not a form of suicide. An overdose occurs when someone either consumes soemthing laced with fentanyl, or a dose higher than were told it was. I'm not saying fentanyl isn't an issue, i'm saying people aren't using it to commit suicide.

Arnox said:
I need people that can tell me I'm fucking retarded.
Click to expand...
You're fucking retarded.
 
Arnox

Arnox

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Staff member
Founder
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Houseman said:
Next up: 10 ways to seduce a minor!
Click to expand...
This one gave me pause for a minute, but consider that there is obviously zero reason and zero justification to seduce a minor. None. There is justification, however scant, for suicide in very specific situations. In fairness though, most of the time, no, suicide is not justified at all.

Drathnoxis said:
Maybe, but we don't need guides and analysis
Click to expand...
Well technically, Drath, we don't need anything. We don't need to post guides on how to pirate or how to find reputable news sources beyond the mainstream ones, but there are legitimate justified uses for both of those just as there is justification for suicide, again, in very, very specific situations.

Drathnoxis said:
And no. You will be responsible.
Click to expand...
That's very interesting that you say that. Let's talk about this then. On YouTube, I can do a quick search and immediately find out how to make a nuclear bomb. I could probably even find, with some further digging, where to find fissile material. Is YouTube responsible for this then? Are the creators who made that content? Let's take another example. How many games feature mass-murdering of innocent people? Doesn't that spur people to do it? In that case, you are literally pulling the trigger or stabbing the knife into someone and watching them die. If you think this thread is not acceptable content because it encourages people to kill themselves, then where is the line? Isn't this ENTIRE SITE a crime against humanity because we allow people to say the 'n' word with a hard 'r' and let racists talk about their racist beliefs without any form of censorship?

On the shroomery.org boards, I'm sure I could find people talking about their experience with hard non-psychedelic drugs and maybe even how to manufacture them. I not only linked to that forum but promoted it as a good website for discussion. Nobody said anything about that. Not a word. How about sciencemadness.org? They have recipes on explosives. Literally what you were just talking about.

Drathnoxis said:
or make easy bombs from household ingredients?
Click to expand...
You didn't say a word about that site I linked. Not a peep. How about


Now we're encouraging pedophilia then, aren't we? Oh my goodness, why are we even allowing discussion about these top-


Oh...

Look, if you think the guide is poorly written, that's fair. If you want more sources, that's also fair. All things that I can see. But let's not come up with any such nonsense about responsibility and what we're encouraging here. I assumed this was decided a long time ago. We DO have rules, yes. There are lines, yes, but the only reason why we have those rules in the first place is because it was HEAVILY debated and talked about. Someone needed to bring those things up for discussion and through that, we found out where those hard lines were.

So... Before we go any further with discussion on the particulars of the guide, do you think guides on suicide should be against the rules?
 
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Battousai

Battousai

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Arnox said:
So... Before we go any further with discussion on the particulars of the guide, do you think guides on suicide should be against the rules?
Click to expand...
It's not really a matter of rules as much as fucking common sense to not provide a readily available comprehensive list on how to end yourself to random depressed people on the internet doing something like a Google search on possible methods just because they had a bad day/week/month etc. Not even talking about actual people that are suicidal yet, just someone who is depressed and has the random thought, yes they do search for it and I know it because I did so myself years ago when I was down. Those people need someone to talk to, not a guide on how to kill themselves.
 
Drathnoxis

Drathnoxis

Devotee
Messages
231
Arnox said:
This one gave me pause for a minute, but consider that there is obviously zero reason and zero justification to seduce a minor. None. There is justification, however scant, for suicide in very specific situations. In fairness though, most of the time, no, suicide is not justified at all.
Click to expand...
What if seducing the minor was the only way to save their life?



Arnox said:
Well technically, Drath, we don't need anything. We don't need to post guides on how to pirate or how to find reputable news sources beyond the mainstream ones, but there are legitimate justified uses for both of those just as there is justification for suicide, again, in very, very specific situations.
Click to expand...
Except those things don't cause harm to people.



Arnox said:
That's very interesting that you say that. Let's talk about this then. On YouTube, I can do a quick search and immediately find out how to make a nuclear bomb. I could probably even find, with some further digging, where to find fissile material. Is YouTube responsible for this then? Are the creators who made that content? Let's take another example. How many games feature mass-murdering of innocent people? Doesn't that spur people to do it? In that case, you are literally pulling the trigger or stabbing the knife into someone and watching them die. If you think this thread is not acceptable content because it encourages people to kill themselves, then where is the line? Isn't this ENTIRE SITE a crime against humanity because we allow people to say the 'n' word with a hard 'r' and let racists talk about their racist beliefs without any form of censorship?

On the shroomery.org boards, I'm sure I could find people talking about their experience with hard non-psychedelic drugs and maybe even how to manufacture them. I not only linked to that forum but promoted it as a good website for discussion. Nobody said anything about that. Not a word. How about sciencemadness.org? They have recipes on explosives. Literally what you were just talking about.
Click to expand...
Yes, if you tell someone how to do something and they use that knowledge for ill intent you are responsible. Knowledge can be dangerous and you need to be responsible when spreading it. Knowledge is power and you have to understand that when you post it on the internet you are handing out power indiscriminately to those who may not use it responsibly or with good intent.

As far as video games are concerned it has yet to be definitively proven whether video games increase or decrease violence, and there are good arguments for both. Posting a guide on how to best kill yourself can only have one outcome.

Arnox said:
You didn't say a word about that site I linked. Not a peep. How about


Now we're encouraging pedophilia then, aren't we? Oh my goodness, why are we even allowing discussion about these top-


Oh...
Click to expand...
What site? I don't read everything on this site and I also don't follow outgoing links or watch most videos. As far as that thread was concerned as I remember it as a discussion as to whether pedophilia was a sexual orientation similar to homosexuality, and not a guide on the best methods for molesting children. I never said that there couldn't be a discussion on suicide, but posting a guide saying "here's the best way to kill yourself and how to do it" can only encourage people to kill themselves, there's no upside to be had from that.

Arnox said:
Look, if you think the guide is poorly written, that's fair. If you want more sources, that's also fair. All things that I can see. But let's not come up with any such nonsense about responsibility and what we're encouraging here. I assumed this was decided a long time ago. We DO have rules, yes. There are lines, yes, but the only reason why we have those rules in the first place is because it was HEAVILY debated and talked about. Someone needed to bring those things up for discussion and through that, we found out where those hard lines were.

So... Before we go any further with discussion on the particulars of the guide, do you think guides on suicide should be against the rules?
Click to expand...
Yes, I would say that guides on harmful activities should be against the rules.
 
Houseman

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Arnox said:
This one gave me pause for a minute, but consider that there is obviously zero reason and zero justification to seduce a minor. None. There is justification, however scant, for suicide in very specific situations. In fairness though, most of the time, no, suicide is not justified at all.
Click to expand...
What's a theoretical justification for suicide that can't also apply to acting out one's natural sexual urges?

You said "For example, towards the latter part of terminal cancer."

What if both the pedophile and the child both have terminal cancer and consent?
 
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Arnox

Arnox

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Battousai said:
It's not really a matter of rules as much as fucking common sense to not provide a readily available comprehensive list on how to end yourself to random depressed people on the internet doing something like a Google search on possible methods just because they had a bad day/week/month etc. Not even talking about actual people that are suicidal yet, just someone who is depressed and has the random thought, yes they do search for it and I know it because I did so myself years ago when I was down. Those people need someone to talk to, not a guide on how to kill themselves.
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But you have to keep in mind though, there ARE massive disclaimers right at the beginning of this thread in capital, bolded, and underlined words. Hell, you can't even click to get to the guide without first going through ANOTHER disclaimer saying the exact same thing. I was extremely explicit about why this is (very usually) a terrible idea. The only other way I could have made it even more prominent was to jack up the font size to 16.

Another thing is that when I ask if something should be against the rules, I'm not asking if that something is disagreeable or silly. What is banned on Sanctuary is banned because it has been discussed and found that there is no sufficient ambiguity and also, that there are no legitimate justified scenarios whatsoever for the thing being banned. (I should probably add that to the site rules introduction.) "Common sense" is not enough of a justification here. For example, some would say that it is common sense for "hate speech" to be banned, but we at Sanctuary all know why that is false. We do not ban things just to make ourselves feel better or more comfortable. So that's what I'm asking. When I ask whether something should be banned, what I'm actually asking is, "Is there absolutely no legitimate justification whatsoever for suicide, period?"

Drathnoxis said:
Yes, I would say that guides on harmful activities should be against the rules.
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Alright then. Let's get into it.

Drathnoxis said:
What if seducing the minor was the only way to save their life?
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This goes back to Houseman's Would you molest a child to save its life? thread. And my response to that is my response to you. I'm not gonna do it unless I know the kid is fully aware of what exactly will happen. Yes, even if it means they die. By the way, this is also completely putting aside the fact that this scenario is almost completely ridiculous and the chances of it happening are so extremely remote that it's not worth seriously considering.

Drathnoxis said:
Except those things don't cause harm to people.
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Pirating can potentially cause financial harm. Or how about Common Area Infiltration Tactics? That could easily cause harm in the wrong hands. Or how about even just a simple guide on how to write persuasively? This can be used to convince people to believe lies and engage in cultish practices. Being able to write incredibly persuasively is far more dangerous knowledge in my opinion than any of the above. All of these things can cause real legitimate harm.

Drathnoxis said:
Yes, if you tell someone how to do something and they use that knowledge for ill intent you are responsible. Knowledge can be dangerous and you need to be responsible when spreading it. Knowledge is power and you have to understand that when you post it on the internet you are handing out power indiscriminately to those who may not use it responsibly or with good intent.
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Freedom is power and does bring with it responsibility, yes, but responsibility for our OWN actions, not the actions of others. For effective freedom, citizens must be informed, and that information includes potentially dangerous information. Now, it is true that some information gives more power than other pieces of information and sometimes, as discussed in my old thread, On Freedom of Information: How Much is Too Much?, there are some pieces of information, such as personal information, that have too many issues with their free release. But I do not see why a thread on various methods of suicide has too many issues with it for release.

Drathnoxis said:
Posting a guide on how to best kill yourself can only have one outcome.
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And that outcome may or may not be justified just as the outcome of, say, posting a video on self-defense tactics may or may not be justified.

Drathnoxis said:
a discussion as to whether pedophilia was a sexual orientation similar to homosexuality, and not a guide on the best methods for molesting children.
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But a pedophile could go into that thread and easily get the wrong idea, thinking, "Oh, my sexual urges are natural so they're absolutely fine to carry out!" So the thread is sufficiently dangerous to warrant deletion, right?

Houseman said:
What's the justification for suicide that can't also apply to acting out your natural sexual urges?
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If those urges are acted on, someone else not only gets hurt but gets deeply scarred and affected by them. Suicide is a decision regarding your own life. Taking it CAN absolutely scar others as well that care about you, but sometimes, there are scenarios where a person is suffering so deeply with no end in sight and it would be better for all parties that suicide is done so that the suiciding person doesn't have to suffer any further massive pain. For example, a person might suffer massive chronic pain and they can't even live their lives to a basic degree and there is no cure. And it's easy to say, "They need to just take the pain," but such massive constant stress can make you into a shell of a person.

Now in that case, the suicide should be discussed with loved ones for sure if at all possible, but sometimes, even this is not the case. Perhaps you're a prisoner of war being tortured while rotting in a concentration camp in some dictatorial shithole of a country. Maybe nobody from your country even knows you're there. Or maybe you're about to die, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's gonna happen. It's only a question of how much short time you have. And you know that if you don't commit suicide, you are going to suffer very deeply before you die. Or how about many kinds of dementia? The person is lucid for much of it, but towards the end, they will turn into a shell of their former selves, not even able to basically function before they finally die. Should everyone have to live through ALL of that suffering?
 
Drathnoxis

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Arnox said:
This goes back to Houseman's Would you molest a child to save its life? thread. And my response to that is my response to you. I'm not gonna do it unless I know the kid is fully aware of what exactly will happen. Yes, even if it means they die. By the way, this is also completely putting aside the fact that this scenario is almost completely ridiculous and the chances of it happening are so extremely remote that it's not worth seriously considering.
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I was joking. That thread was so stupid I couldn't resist referencing it.


Arnox said:
Alright then. Let's get into it.
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No thanks. Not interested in a long protracted argument where you drag in a thousand side issues. If you can't see how this guide could easily cause direct harm to someone I have nothing else to say other than you've never been suicidal or had anybody really important to you attempt/commit suicide. Someone very well might find this and it could give them the push to put it into practice. It might have been me at one time in my life. There is no benefit other than terminal cases, and those should be handled by medical professionals not some thrown together guide by an internet rando.
 
Arnox

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Drathnoxis said:
I was joking. That thread was so stupid I couldn't resist referencing it.


No thanks. Not interested in a long protracted argument where you drag in a thousand side issues. If you can't see how this guide could easily cause direct harm to someone I have nothing else to say other than you've never been suicidal or had anybody really important to you attempt/commit suicide. Someone very well might find this and it could give them the push to put it into practice. It might have been me at one time in my life. There is no benefit other than terminal cases, and those should be handled by medical professionals not some thrown together guide by an internet rando.
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If you don't want to get involved, Drath, that's fine, but you can't just pop in, accuse me of being directly responsible for people's deaths, and then leave, assuming that's gonna answer everything. If you're gonna lay THAT kind of blame on me, okay, I'm very open to talking about it and I'm even sympathetic to what you're saying, but you better be willing to back that major accusation up. I've gone with you every step of the way here. I've answered all of your arguments reasonably and politely. And again, if you'd rather not carry this any further, I do get it. This IS exhausting to discuss. This IS some heavy stuff. But this IS Sanctuary. And this is the kind of stuff that can get brought up and debated here.

If you're going to disengage, alright, but don't assume things about me, and most of all, please at least give me the courtesy of not calling me a murderer, because that's what you're saying pretty much.
 
Vendor-Lazarus

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I have attempted suicide before, and I see nothing wrong with discussing this. People have agency, and different circumstances. If one can see and read about how to kill other people (action/horror movies, games, etc), then one can certainly discuss killing yourself.
 
Drathnoxis

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Arnox said:
If you don't want to get involved, Drath, that's fine, but you can't just pop in, accuse me of being directly responsible for people's deaths, and then leave, assuming that's gonna answer everything. If you're gonna lay THAT kind of blame on me, okay, I'm very open to talking about it and I'm even sympathetic to what you're saying, but you better be willing to back that major accusation up. I've gone with you every step of the way here. I've answered all of your arguments reasonably and politely. And again, if you'd rather not carry this any further, I do get it. This IS exhausting to discuss. This IS some heavy stuff. But this IS Sanctuary. And this is the kind of stuff that can get brought up and debated here.

If you're going to disengage, alright, but don't assume things about me, and most of all, please at least give me the courtesy of not calling me a murderer, because that's what you're saying pretty much.
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None of the rest of your previous post has anything to do with the fact that you might be responsible for someone's death. I think I've already made all my points perfectly clear and they aren't going to change. You've given specific recommendations and advice on how to commit suicide with a pretense of authority. It's possible someone who is depressed could stumble across this post and it might be the final straw that causes them to decide to load themselves up with alcohol and sleeping pills. You don't understand the mental state someone might be in or what may give them that final push. You can't assume that the person will be fully mature or have thought of all these methods either, and nobody in that state is a very responsible decision maker. Maybe they would have found the push elsewhere or maybe they wouldn't. Suicide isn't a logical decision, and in most cases it's not the best solution to their problems or even a good one. I've had two close relatives attempt suicide, thankfully they failed and got the help they needed and are now living happy and productive lives. Maybe if they'd followed your guide they wouldn't be. Or maybe they'd have woken up brain damaged, who knows.

We can discuss suicide, in fact it's good to do so, but discussion does not mean give specific advice on the best methods to succeed in it. In the end you need to be responsible in what you say. If it bothers you that someone might follow this guide despite your warnings (which they might) then take it down.
 
Arnox

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Drathnoxis said:
None of the rest of your previous post has anything to do with the fact that you might be responsible for someone's death. I think I've already made all my points perfectly clear and they aren't going to change. You've given specific recommendations and advice on how to commit suicide with a pretense of authority. It's possible someone who is depressed could stumble across this post and it might be the final straw that causes them to decide to load themselves up with alcohol and sleeping pills. You don't understand the mental state someone might be in or what may give them that final push. You can't assume that the person will be fully mature or have thought of all these methods either, and nobody in that state is a very responsible decision maker. Maybe they would have found the push elsewhere or maybe they wouldn't. Suicide isn't a logical decision, and in most cases it's not the best solution to their problems or even a good one. I've had two close relatives attempt suicide, thankfully they failed and got the help they needed and are now living happy and productive lives. Maybe if they'd followed your guide they wouldn't be. Or maybe they'd have woken up brain damaged, who knows.

We can discuss suicide, in fact it's good to do so, but discussion does not mean give specific advice on the best methods to succeed in it. In the end you need to be responsible in what you say. If it bothers you that someone might follow this guide despite your warnings (which they might) then take it down.
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Ok, but the problem is that I disagree with the logic behind several of these key points with the TL;DR of it being that the logic of someone getting "pushed over the edge" by a post like this (Which, again, by the way, tells the reader at the first part of it in big bold letters TWICE that this is usually a horrible idea. Why does everybody keep skipping over that?) applies to just about every single edgy topic on this site. If I were to ban suicide guides, I would have to ban a lot more than that in order to be consistent. And that's not all the issues at all that I found. I could go on.

But you don't want to discuss any of that, accusing me of bringing up a thousand side issues. Well, that's debate, man. When you're debating a topic, you bring up issues with their arguments. I don't know what else you want me to do in order to discuss this. There is no other way.
 
Drathnoxis

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@Vendor-Lazarus Oh, I guess other people do it too so it's fine, lol.

I mean, unless they bear the exact same responsibility that they might be the one to provide a method that someone uses to kill themselves. If they're fine with that, then they're fine with that. And if Arnox is fine with that, then he's fine with that, it's his site and it's not like he'll ever really know, so there's no reason he'll ever feel guilty about it. I just think it's a bad way to be, we should be striving to make the world just a little bit of a better place, not a worse one. But whatever, that's just my opinion.
 
Arnox

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Drathnoxis said:
we should be striving to make the world just a little bit of a better place, not a worse one.
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I 100% agree with you. In fact, that's the entire reason why this site is even here at all.

Consider as well the possibility that someone looking to commit suicide and reading this guide might actually be DETERRED from doing so simply because of the warnings or maybe, as mentioned, because the knowledge of how do so gives them enough comfort and peace of mind to carry on with this life.
 
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