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<p>[QUOTE="Paco Smithereens, post: 12124, member: 236"]</p><p>The problem with symbols is they don't work that way: the receiver is going to react to or interpret them however they're going to. You can fly whatever flag you like and insist it means one thing, but you don't get to dictate meaning to those receiving it. You <em>hope</em> the receiver will interpret it as you meant, but this just isn't how it works in practice.</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-07-12-me-22939-story.html[/URL]</p><p></p><p>The second issue is the term "offense" has been used to cover everything from mild irritation to outrage to trauma.</p><p></p><p>My thing about the rebel flag is whether or not a person's need to express "Southern Pride" - whatever that is (spoiler for those who haven't been to the South: it's mainly strip malls and chain restaurants, interspersed with rural areas like everywhere else) ought to exceed a person's desire to live a life free of having to revisit past traumas through being reminded of atrocities: or more specifically whether you as a person ought to measure your penchant for flamboyance against the damage flying a symbol like that can do.</p><p></p><p>The first thing that happens in this debate is one camp of people want to quickly shuffle this under "should be legally allowed to" and have a First Amendment conversation. While there are people who don't believe in the First Amendment, or for those not in the US the more transcendent concepts behind it, this is not where most of the objection comes from. It is easy to say "First Amendment!" and leave it laying there; for me the question of whether someone has the right to fly the flag is boring -- of course they do. Like a Nazi flag.</p><p></p><p>The question is whether this desire to express your mythical pride is so important to you that you'd rub people's faces in the atrocities committed under it makes you an asshole or not. And yeah, it makes you an asshole. If you are flying a rebel flag, I don't want anything to do with you. Climb out of your own ass and understand that there are people for whom that is a painful symbol.</p><p></p><p>And if you're okay with that, there's not much left to discuss. Be the asshole you really want to be. But be expected to be called out on it. And I'll expect you to whine about being "cancelled" or something when there are consequences.</p><p></p><p>And I've noticed that for a lot of people who insist "Southern Pride" is something apart from the racist traditions in that part of the world, it doesn't take more than a few beers to learn quickly that yeah Southern Pride means, I don't know, lemonade and humid summer days and people talkin' all kindly like...but also racism. The same way "I'm totally not an anti-Semite but I oppose the actions of the State of Israel" is a technically feasible position to hold, but follow the person around awhile, and the anti-Semitism they swear they aren't capable of somehow drips out.</p><p></p><p>Not *everyone.* But as a trend, yeah.</p><p></p><p>When I see someone flying the rebel flag, I just think they're a moron. I'm in good company. If it doesn't bother you that people think that, well, it's a free country.</p><p></p><p>Except for me of course; no matter what I do, I rule.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Paco Smithereens, post: 12124, member: 236"] The problem with symbols is they don't work that way: the receiver is going to react to or interpret them however they're going to. You can fly whatever flag you like and insist it means one thing, but you don't get to dictate meaning to those receiving it. You [I]hope[/I] the receiver will interpret it as you meant, but this just isn't how it works in practice. [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-07-12-me-22939-story.html[/URL] The second issue is the term "offense" has been used to cover everything from mild irritation to outrage to trauma. My thing about the rebel flag is whether or not a person's need to express "Southern Pride" - whatever that is (spoiler for those who haven't been to the South: it's mainly strip malls and chain restaurants, interspersed with rural areas like everywhere else) ought to exceed a person's desire to live a life free of having to revisit past traumas through being reminded of atrocities: or more specifically whether you as a person ought to measure your penchant for flamboyance against the damage flying a symbol like that can do. The first thing that happens in this debate is one camp of people want to quickly shuffle this under "should be legally allowed to" and have a First Amendment conversation. While there are people who don't believe in the First Amendment, or for those not in the US the more transcendent concepts behind it, this is not where most of the objection comes from. It is easy to say "First Amendment!" and leave it laying there; for me the question of whether someone has the right to fly the flag is boring -- of course they do. Like a Nazi flag. The question is whether this desire to express your mythical pride is so important to you that you'd rub people's faces in the atrocities committed under it makes you an asshole or not. And yeah, it makes you an asshole. If you are flying a rebel flag, I don't want anything to do with you. Climb out of your own ass and understand that there are people for whom that is a painful symbol. And if you're okay with that, there's not much left to discuss. Be the asshole you really want to be. But be expected to be called out on it. And I'll expect you to whine about being "cancelled" or something when there are consequences. And I've noticed that for a lot of people who insist "Southern Pride" is something apart from the racist traditions in that part of the world, it doesn't take more than a few beers to learn quickly that yeah Southern Pride means, I don't know, lemonade and humid summer days and people talkin' all kindly like...but also racism. The same way "I'm totally not an anti-Semite but I oppose the actions of the State of Israel" is a technically feasible position to hold, but follow the person around awhile, and the anti-Semitism they swear they aren't capable of somehow drips out. Not *everyone.* But as a trend, yeah. When I see someone flying the rebel flag, I just think they're a moron. I'm in good company. If it doesn't bother you that people think that, well, it's a free country. Except for me of course; no matter what I do, I rule. [/QUOTE]
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