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Offline Addendum_Forthcoming

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2018, 02:18:25 AM »


You're saying that things could be a lot better, but we've been put here as a necessary step in our progression. Experiencing these terrible things is part of that. To take that away would be to rob us of vital experiences.

How would you know, however? Moreover you could say it about anything. "Sure, gravity kills you when you fall off a building... but imagine if there were no gravity!"

Let's take another hypothetical... let's say if there was a megapredator that routinely destroyed human encampments? They were as smart, as able to withstand the environmental differences as us. They could hear as well, see as well, smell as well, have a lesser capacity for vocalization and with tools, as well as relativistically barbaric funerary and pseudo-religious practices.

Picturing it? Well that was our splinter groups of humanity. We were successors by force and material virtues alone despite an intellectual and cultural inferiority. They were fashioning stone ring adornments roughly 20,000 years before we would mimic them. Those early subhumans weren't stupid. They likely had strange conceptions of their relationship to the universe when they looked up at the stars as well, and research suggests a far more complex pseudo-religious relationship if funerary practices are anything to go by.

Neanderthals buried their dead. Had far more complex funerary rituals than us at the time of their extinction. Their skills with tools and artistry surpassed ours. Their concepts of divinity likely did as well. And we destroyed them. Turns out there would be no inheritance of the planet for them, only us.

There is no grand plan, no preplanned objective analysis of humans as if worthy of a god(s)' attentions.

We survived solely because of the Ice Age and expansionism.

Hardship breeds hardened hearts. People die for no good reason. The smartest of us do not lead. Hatred does not breed love and tolerance, it breeds depression, angst, suspicion and destruction. Moreover it is grossly immoral to assume suffering is good for character.

If god(s) truly wanted there to be a grand plan of human suffering, we'd see it. A trans kid who is on the end of a malicious rumour spread by a parent, which gets repeated on Fox News despite no journalistic integrity to research it, suffer with no real apology to date. No recompense. And an innocent child ends up on suicide watch. In a just wotld where suffering benefitted people, that kid deserves a winning lottery ticket.

Whatever justice to our suffering there is, it is entirely manmade. Like, say, a lawsuit against Fox News and the Pacific "Justice" Institute for slander against a private citizen. And the best that that suffering can provide is a horrid realization such suffering hopefully does not continue and is actively penalized when it is afflicted wantonly.

So no... 'for there to be pleasure there needs to be pain' is immoral if purposefully inflicted or allowed. In the same way we are most fortunate not to be neanderthals.

Assuming there is some nativist justice or psychological benefit to pain and hardship, ignores psychology and the fact there is clearly no designs of metaphysical justice in the system.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 02:47:59 AM by Addendum_Forthcoming »

Online Arnox

Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2018, 02:47:02 AM »


You're saying that things could be a lot better, but we've been put here as a necessary step in our progression. Experiencing these terrible things is part of that. To take that away would be to rob us of vital experiences.

How would you know, however? Moreover you could say it about anything. "Sure, gravity kills you when you fall off a building... but imagine if there were no gravity!"

Let's take another hypothetical... let's say if there was a megapredator that routinely destroyed human encampments? They were as smart, as able to withstand the environmental differences as us. They could hear as well, see as well, smell as well, have a lesser capacity for vocalization and with tools, as well as relativistically barbaric funerary and pseudo-religious practices.

Picturing it? Well that was our splinter groups of humanity. We were successors by force and material virtues alone despite an intellectual and cultural inferiority. Those early subhumans weren't stupid. They likely had strange conceptions of their relationship to the universe when they looked up at the stars as well, and research suggests a far more complex pseudo-religious relationship if funerary practices are anything to go by.

Neanderthals buried their dead. Had far more complex funerary rituals than us at the time of their extinction. Their skills with tools and artistry surpassed ours. Their concepts of divinity likely did as well. And we destroyed them. Turns out there would be no inheritance of the planet for them, only us.

There is no grand plan.

Hardship breeds hardened hearts. People die for no good reason. The smartest of us do not lead. Hatred does not breed love and tolerance, it breeds depression, angst, and suspicion. Moreover it is grossly immoral to assume suffering is good for character.

If god(s) truly wanted there to be a grand plan of human suffering, we'd see it. A trans kid who is on the end of a malicious rumour spread by a parent, which gets repeated on Fox News despite no journalistic integrity to research it, suffer with no real apology to date. No recompense. And an innocent child ends up on suicide watch. In a just wotld where suffering benefitted people, that kid deserves a winning lottery ticket.

Whatever justice to our suffering there is, it is entirely manmade. Like, say, a lawsuit against Fox News and the Pacific "Justice" Institute for slander against a private citizen. And the best that that suffering can provide is a horrid realization such suffering does not continue and is sctively penalized ehen it is afflicted wantonly.

So no... 'for there to be pleasure there needs to be pain' is immoral if purposefully inflicted or allowed. In the same way we are most fortunate not to be neanderthals.

Assuming there is some nativist justice or psychological benefit to pain and hardship, ignores psychology and the fact there is clearly no designs of metaphysical justice in the system.

If your view of the world is really this hard, then you probably deserve my signature gif more than me.


^ Does that sound like how you view things?

Offline Addendum_Forthcoming

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2018, 03:24:19 AM »


If your view of the world is really this hard, then you probably deserve my signature gif more than me.


^ Does that sound like how you view things?

Absolutely not. There is no objective truth, humans are capable of dying for something larger than themselves and (most importantly) explain why, and it is more than in our capacity to be decent humans that seek not to demean others but celebrate their existence.

To put it pointedly, we are the universe recognizing itself. Coming to grips with it. Isolated little dots of starlight, separated by unfathomable distances. And people are clearly capable of not only internalizing that esoteric idea of universal awareness, but are capable of seeing its beauty and chaos in other people despite lonely and isolated consciousnesses.

Humans are a transient, winking starlight in a universe far older than it, and a universe that will outlive us.

To put it another way, there is no grand plan--but to put it another way, there is no grand plan. It's a matter of perspective. Whether you choose to count stars and recognize people's starlight, or dwell on the unfathomable abyss between them, and that it truly matters not if they live or die.

People should count stars.

Offline Houseman

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2018, 03:42:23 AM »

Here's a quick and dirty list of Bible errors.
 
Spoiler
John 3:13-No man hath ascended into heaven

2 Kings 2:11-Elijah went up into heaven

Mat. 27:5-7-Judas hung himself.

Acts 1:18-19- Judas fell down and his guts burst asunder.

Gen. 6:6-7 -God repents.

Rom. 11:29--God can’t repent.

Acts 9:7--Men heard a voice but saw no man.

Acts 22:9--Saw a light, but heard no voice.

Exodus 24:9-11--Moses saw the God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:12--Moses only heard a voice.

John 3:22--Jesus baptized.

John 4:2--Jesus didn’t baptize.

2 Chron. 22:2--Ahaziah 42 when he began to reign.

2 Kings 8:26--Ahaziah 22 when he began to reign.

James 1:13--God tempts no man.

Gen. 22:1--God tempted Abraham.

1 Chron. 21:1--Satan provokes David to number Israel.

2 Sam. 24:1-- God moved David to number Israel.

Mat. 5:22--Whoever calls his brother a fool is in danger of hellfire.

Luke 24:25--Christ calls Cleopas a fool.

Rom. 3:23--No man is perfect.

Job 1:1--Job is perfect. Luke 1:6--Zacharias and Elizabeth are perfect.

Mat. 1:16--Jacob begat Joseph

Luke 3:23--Heli begat Joseph

Psalms 121:4--The Lord shall not sleep.

Psalm 44:23--The Lord sleeps.

Heb. 7:0--Abraham was Levis great grandfather and was dead before his father was born. How

could he pay tithes to him?

Acts 13:48--Can you gain eternal life and then believe in Christ?

1 John 4:2-3--A spirit of the devil will not testify Christ has come in the flesh.

Mark 1:23-24--Demons testify of Christ.

John 5:20-- God shows Christ all things that He does

Matt. 24:36--No one knows when the second coming of Christ is, not the angels, or Christ

himself, only God.

Psalms 46:1--God is there in times of trouble.

Psalms 10:1--God hides in times of trouble.

Mat. 27:37--This is Jesus the king of the Jews.

Mark 15:26--The king of the Jews.

Luke 23:38--This is the king of the Jews.

John 19:19--Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews.

Matthew 1:1-16--Differing genealogies of Christ

Luke 3:23-38

Proverbs 8:17--Those that seek me early shall find me.

Proverbs 1:28--They shall seek me early, but they shall not find me.

Jer. 17:10--God searches the heart.

Deut. 8:2--God tries to see whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Isa. 49:15--God will not forget.

Gen. 8:1--God remembers Noah (meaning He must have forgot him)

Num. 12:8--The similitude of the Lord shall he behold

Deut. 4:12--Ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude.

Isa. 14:5--I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me.

Gen. 1:26--And God said, let us make man in our own image.

1 Kings 4:26--Solomon had 40,000 stalls

2 Chron. 9:25--Solomon had 4,000 stalls

John 5:31--If I bear witness of myself my record is not true

John 8:14--Though I bear record of myself my record is true

Acts 7:22-- Moses was mighty in words

Ex. 4:10-- "I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue."

2 Sam. 24:9--800,000 men

1 Chron. 21:5--1,000,000 men

2 Kings 24:8--Jeoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign and reigned for 3 months

2 Chron. 36:9--Jeoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign and reigned 3 months and 10

days.

2 Sam. 8:4--700 horseman

1 Chron. 18:5--7000 horseman

Gen. 6:20, 7:15--Fowls by two

Gen. 7:3--Fowls by sevens

1 Kings 7:26--molten sea contains 2000 baths (a measurement of volume)

2 Chron. 4:5--molten sea contains 3000 baths

Ex. 1:5--All the souls that came out of Jacob were 70 souls

Acts 7:14--75 souls

Gen 50:13--Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the

Hittite

Acts 7:15-16--Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor

Ex. 12:14--Passover an eternal covenant, (Gen. 17:13) circumcision an everlasting covenant

Acts 15:1-11--no longer necessary

Mat. 10:23--One translation states "you will not finish your work in all the towns of Israel before

the Son of Man comes"

Mat. 24:14--Gospel is to be preached to all the world before the end would come.

Mat. 24:14--Jesus prophesied that after the Gospel was preached "in all the world" "the end

would come"

Col. 1:23--Paul said that the "gospel...was preached to every creature which is under heaven"

Ex 12:40--The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years.

Acts 7:6--The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years.

Num 25:9--God's plague kills 24,000

1 Cor 10:8--God's plague kills 23,000

Solomon's reign.

Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign

as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David

reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign)

= 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple

building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the

Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years.

1 Sam 28:6--Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him

1 Chron 10:13,14--Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God


I don't usually argue with the internet. I assume you copied and pasted that list from somewhere, and didn't just have all those memorized as one would lyrics to a song. The net is vast and infinite, and I am but a lowly mortal. I cannot possibly take the time to refute everything that someone googles up.

However, I have had lists of bible contradictions thrown at me before, and I have spent many hours of my life refuting them. Most can be reconciled. Some are utterly inconsequential, such as the number of horses some ancient king is supposed to have had. If you'd like, pick several of your favorites, and I'll see what I can do to explain them.

Quote
Furthermore, if the Bible's so clear and error free, why are there SO MANY DIFFERENT Christian religions out there?

Must we blame the bible for the different sects of Christianity? Do all these sects even claim to be based on the bible? Are the differences between these groups based solely on fundamental disagreements over the interpretation of certain verses? Can those LDS sects be blamed on the Book of Mormon?

To be clear: if you are asserting that the number of Christian religions in the world is due to the ambiguity of the bible, I would disagree with this assertion and ask for proof of your claim. However, if you are just asking an innocent question, then I offer mine in response.

Quote
As to not liking the Bible, this isn't true at all. The New Testament is one of my favorite parts of scripture.

Quote from: 8th Article of Faith
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

There's a very good reason though why the Book of Mormon had to come out in this time.


So why esteem, or even quote from a book so full of "holes and inconsistencies" as you put it? If the bible is a filthy, worm-eaten rag, why display it next to the immaculate silk that is the BoM?  Have the LDS cleared up all the inconsistencies and patched all the holes?

What do you think led to the bible being in such a sorry state?
Do you think that the same thing will ever happen to the BoM?
Do you believe that the BoM has some sort of special protection over it?
  If so, why didn't the bible have this protection?

Online Arnox

Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2018, 03:56:48 AM »
Absolutely not. There is no objective truth, humans are capable of dying for something larger than themselves and (most importantly) explain why, and it is more than in our capacity to be decent humans that seek not to demean others but celebrate their existence.

To put it pointedly, we are the universe recognizing itself. Coming to grips with it. Isolated little dots of starlight, separated by unfathomable distances. And people are clearly capable of not only internalizing that esoteric idea of universal awareness, but are capable of seeing its beauty and chaos in other people despite lonely and isolated consciousnesses.

Humans are a transient, winking starlight in a universe far older than it, and a universe that will outlive us.

To put it another way, there is no grand plan--but to put it another way, there is no grand plan. It's a matter of perspective.

Ah. So you believe in Monism then?

Whether you choose to count stars and recognize people's starlight, or dwell on the unfathomable abyss between them, and that it truly matters not if they live or die.

People should count stars.

^ I actually like how you put this...


I don't usually argue with the internet. I assume you copied and pasted that list from somewhere, and didn't just have all those memorized as one would lyrics to a song. The net is vast and infinite, and I am but a lowly mortal. I cannot possibly take the time to refute everything that someone googles up.

However, I have had lists of bible contradictions thrown at me before, and I have spent many hours of my life refuting them. Most can be reconciled. Some are utterly inconsequential, such as the number of horses some ancient king is supposed to have had. If you'd like, pick several of your favorites, and I'll see what I can do to explain them.

Must we blame the bible for the different sects of Christianity? Do all these sects even claim to be based on the bible? Are the differences between these groups based solely on fundamental disagreements over the interpretation of certain verses? Can those LDS sects be blamed on the Book of Mormon?

To be clear: if you are asserting that the number of Christian religions in the world is due to the ambiguity of the bible, I would disagree with this assertion and ask for proof of your claim. However, if you are just asking an innocent question, then I offer mine in response.

If the bible is a filthy, worm-eaten rag, why display it next to the immaculate silk that is the BoM?  Have the LDS cleared up all the inconsistencies and patched all the holes?

What do you think led to the bible being in such a sorry state?
Do you think that the same thing will ever happen to the BoM?
Do you believe that the BoM has some sort of special protection over it?
If so, why didn't the bible have this protection?

Alright, I'm actually happy to discuss these things with you, believe it or not, but it seems like you're now just in this to argue.

Admittedly, I'm kind of doing the same thing, but you're not the only one here who's researched and prayed. I've looked at many different religions. Buddhism, wicca, some of the more famous sects of Christianity, and in all my looking, nothing has made more beautiful logical sense than the LDS religion. Not one.

Offline Houseman

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2018, 04:03:24 AM »
Alright, I'm actually happy to discuss these things with you, believe it or not, but it seems like you're now just in this to argue.
What makes you think that?
Quote
nothing has made more beautiful logical sense than the LDS religion. Not one.
Okay.


So are you going to answer my questions or...

Offline Signa

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2018, 04:06:57 AM »
Usually. That's not to say we don't get crazy people/shitheads.
Yeah, but I'm gonna call you retarded if you think there are none in any given group.  I probably should start calling more people retarded, because I engage too often with people who actually think their group is pure, or the shitheads are justified.
The first and second amendments guarantees your right to oppose the first and second amendments.

Online Arnox

Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2018, 04:12:19 AM »
So are you going to answer my questions or...

Yeah. I just wanted confirmation that you were taking this seriously.

I'll be back in an hour and resume answering ya'.

Yeah, but I'm gonna call you retarded if you think there are none in any given group.  I probably should start calling more people retarded, because I engage too often with people who actually think their group is pure, or the shitheads are justified.

Call people retarded all you want here. This isn't a "safe space". :tup: Just make sure you're not harassing people as defined in the rules is all.

Offline Signa

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2018, 04:19:49 AM »
Yeah, I don't plan on harassing anyone.  Maybe, just trying to think of some circumstances where I could start skirting the line, I could see myself bringing a previous conversation with someone up from another thread if they are being inconsistent or hypocritical and then telling them off for it.  I'm certainly not going to be passive-agressive and use terms like "self important" to get someone banned because of their poor reaction to the false accusation. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

Edit: ok, that was pretty passive-agressive of me  :-[
The first and second amendments guarantees your right to oppose the first and second amendments.

Offline Addendum_Forthcoming

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2018, 05:23:58 AM »


Ah. So you believe in Monism then?

Not exactly. Particularly its more essentialist aspects. Existence precedes essence. I don't know enough about Monism to talk about it, however.

Online Arnox

Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2018, 06:11:55 AM »
I don't usually argue with the internet. I assume you copied and pasted that list from somewhere, and didn't just have all those memorized as one would lyrics to a song. The net is vast and infinite, and I am but a lowly mortal. I cannot possibly take the time to refute everything that someone googles up.

However, I have had lists of bible contradictions thrown at me before, and I have spent many hours of my life refuting them. Most can be reconciled. Some are utterly inconsequential, such as the number of horses some ancient king is supposed to have had. If you'd like, pick several of your favorites, and I'll see what I can do to explain them.

Must we blame the bible for the different sects of Christianity? Do all these sects even claim to be based on the bible? Are the differences between these groups based solely on fundamental disagreements over the interpretation of certain verses? Can those LDS sects be blamed on the Book of Mormon?

To be clear: if you are asserting that the number of Christian religions in the world is due to the ambiguity of the bible, I would disagree with this assertion and ask for proof of your claim. However, if you are just asking an innocent question, then I offer mine in response.

If the bible is a filthy, worm-eaten rag, why display it next to the immaculate silk that is the BoM?  Have the LDS cleared up all the inconsistencies and patched all the holes?

What do you think led to the bible being in such a sorry state?
Do you think that the same thing will ever happen to the BoM?
Do you believe that the BoM has some sort of special protection over it?
If so, why didn't the bible have this protection?

- Yep. I copypasta'd it. Although I did say, "quick and dirty" didn't I?

- It's not like the problematic passages can't be explained. In fact, it's the opposite. It's that there's too many possible explanations. Too many possible interpretations. Which one is correct? Mine? Yours? Your brother's wife's grandma's?

- Well, let's take your religion for example. You've said that JW's think preaching door to door is the most important duty. The LDS think it's important, but don't think it should be completely spent going door to door at all. In fact, you'd probably be surprised how many new members we get through referrals instead.

- The Bible is actually awesome when you have the Book of Mormon to clarify some very key points. Sometimes even WHY some things happened in the Bible the way they did. Baptism and the sacrament for example. With the BoM, it becomes what it should have been. Without all the clarification and additions the Book of Mormon gives, it becomes a very serious problem. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon is much easier to read than the Bible. It's easy to understand yet complex and powerful enough to warrant intense study and reading.

- The Bible is as it currently is due to translation errors, malicious editing, and general mishandling over the years of its existence.

- The Book of Mormon is different from the Bible in terms of transcribing due to it being translated STRAIGHT from the source material by the sheer power of God. Or at least that's our firm belief. It went from symbols on ancient American metal plates straight to common English. Joseph Smith even copied some of the characters from the plates and then the translation for them and then sent them off to an expert for a certificate of authenticity. The first person they went to was actually about to clear it, saying it was a remarkable 1:1 translation, but when he heard who exactly was requesting the certificate, he tore it up purely because he didn't want to be associated with the church.

- Define: special protection. If you mean in terms of entropy/editing over time like the Bible, this makes no sense. The Book of Mormon doesn't need protection. You can read the first edition of it freely if you really want to.

Not exactly. Particularly its more essentialist aspects. Existence precedes essence. I don't know enough about Monism to talk about it, however.

And how did you arrive at these conclusions?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 06:19:28 AM by Arnox »

Offline Addendum_Forthcoming

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2018, 12:41:08 PM »

And how did you arrive at these conclusions?

Bit of Kierkegaard here and there, bit of Camus, bit of Sartre, bit of Beauvoir ...

But mostly I would say my advocacy work for LGBTQ Australians, as well as fairly extensive travelling about SE Asia. I've seen coups, the results of occupation, civil unrest, environmental catastrophes, entrenched poverty...

I'm convinced people can be better. I've seen the 'ordinary' person's strength in the face of truest adversity. I've seen courage and self-authenticity when the weight of the world seeks to crush them for it. I've seen hardship and generosity of those who have nothing left to give and yet find the means to allow others to survive.

Humans are potently vibrant. Brilliant in all their dimensions.

I'm convinced if just enough people saw that chaotic starlight, there'd be no excuses left to see them suffer the predations of the powerful and cruel.

People should count stars.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:05:48 PM by Addendum_Forthcoming »

Offline Houseman

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2018, 12:51:29 PM »
- It's not like the problematic passages can't be explained. In fact, it's the opposite. It's that there's too many possible explanations. Too many possible interpretations. Which one is correct? Mine? Yours? Your brother's wife's grandma's?

I don't see "too many possible explanations" as a problem when confronted with an alleged biblical inconsistency.

For example, let's say that the inconsistency is in verse A, he's in this country, and in verse B he's in another country. What are the possible explanations? That he simply walked, and that sufficient time had passed between verses to allow him to do so. That the author of verse A was using the modern name of the area, after it was conquered by invaders, similar to how one might call Constantinople "Istanbul". That the author of verse B was using the old name of the country, before it was invaded and renamed. That the two countries bordered and the subject was close enough. That the two countries had very similar names and some copyist made an error. I could go on.

I don't see the above as a bad thing. In this context, the more explanations, the better.

As for "Too many possible interpretations", I see that as a completely different issue, to which I'll ask the same questions I asked earlier: Must we blame the bible for this? If 50% of students fail a math class, should we conclude that the book is too ambiguous?

Quote
- Well, let's take your religion for example. You've said that JW's think preaching door to door is the most important duty. The LDS think it's important, but don't think it should be completely spent going door to door at all. In fact, you'd probably be surprised how many new members we get through referrals instead.

Okay. Sorry, I'm having a hard time seeing what point you're trying to make here. You seem to be saying that there are differences between JWs and LDS.

Quote
- The Bible is actually awesome when you have the Book of Mormon to clarify some very key points. Sometimes even WHY some things happened in the Bible the way they did. Baptism and the sacrament for example. With the BoM, it becomes what it should have been. Without all the clarification and additions the Book of Mormon gives, it becomes a very serious problem. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon is much easier to read than the Bible. It's easy to understand yet complex and powerful enough to warrant intense study and reading.

Can you give an example of a serious problem that exists in the bible, but is resolved by the BoM?

Quote
- The Bible is as it currently is due to translation errors, malicious editing, and general mishandling over the years of its existence.

But the LDS still quotes from it, and uses it in their teachings I'd imagine. Why do you trust any part of the bible to be correct, or as it says in the articles of faith, "translated correctly"?

Quote
- The Book of Mormon is different from the Bible in terms of transcribing due to it being translated STRAIGHT from the source material by the sheer power of God. Or at least that's our firm belief. It went from symbols on ancient American metal plates straight to common English. Joseph Smith even copied some of the characters from the plates and then the translation for them and then sent them off to an expert for a certificate of authenticity. The first person they went to was actually about to clear it, saying it was a remarkable 1:1 translation, but when he heard who exactly was requesting the certificate, he tore it up purely because he didn't want to be associated with the church.

I read somewhere that the BoM has gone through something like 20+ changes between then and now. Is this true? If so, doesn't this present the same problem?

Also, wasn't "Reformed Egyptian" supposed to be completely unknown? Isn't it still completely unknown to the rest of the modern world? How could there exist an expert for Joseph Smith to send documents to? Was this expert somehow the only other person in the world capable of translating this language? Why didn't this expert teach anybody else about Reformed Egyptian?

Quote
- Define: special protection. If you mean in terms of entropy/editing over time like the Bible, this makes no sense. The Book of Mormon doesn't need protection. You can read the first edition of it freely if you really want to.

I was attempting to ask: "What makes you so sure that what happened to the bible won't also happen to the BoM?"

Online Arnox

Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2018, 12:58:56 PM »
I'm convinced if just enough people saw that chaotic starlight, there'd be no excuses left to see them suffer the predations of a few corrupt elites and thugs.

The big problem is, at what cost shall others push back?

Even if your cause is just. Even if you're only trying to defend yourself and/or your family. Even if the enemy is totally unreasonable, war is still incredibly ugly and nasty on both sides. Sometimes it's completely unavoidable, but it doesn't make it any better. Because when you enter into a war, it doesn't matter anymore who is right and who is wrong. It's about who is left. And that is an incredibly steep price to take on. Whether you're talking individually or as a group.

- It's not like the problematic passages can't be explained. In fact, it's the opposite. It's that there's too many possible explanations. Too many possible interpretations. Which one is correct? Mine? Yours? Your brother's wife's grandma's?

I don't see "too many possible explanations" as a problem when confronted with an alleged biblical inconsistency.

For example, let's say that the inconsistency is in verse A, he's in this country, and in verse B he's in another country. What are the possible explanations? That he simply walked, and that sufficient time had passed between verses to allow him to do so. That the author of verse A was using the modern name of the area, after it was conquered by invaders, similar to how one might call Constantinople "Istanbul". That the author of verse B was using the old name of the country, before it was invaded and renamed. That the two countries bordered and the subject was close enough. That the two countries had very similar names and some copyist made an error. I could go on.

I don't see the above as a bad thing. In this context, the more explanations, the better.

As for "Too many possible interpretations", I see that as a completely different issue, to which I'll ask the same questions I asked earlier: Must we blame the bible for this? If 50% of students fail a math class, should we conclude that the book is too ambiguous?

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- Well, let's take your religion for example. You've said that JW's think preaching door to door is the most important duty. The LDS think it's important, but don't think it should be completely spent going door to door at all. In fact, you'd probably be surprised how many new members we get through referrals instead.

Okay. Sorry, I'm having a hard time seeing what point you're trying to make here. You seem to be saying that there are differences between JWs and LDS.

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- The Bible is actually awesome when you have the Book of Mormon to clarify some very key points. Sometimes even WHY some things happened in the Bible the way they did. Baptism and the sacrament for example. With the BoM, it becomes what it should have been. Without all the clarification and additions the Book of Mormon gives, it becomes a very serious problem. Furthermore, the Book of Mormon is much easier to read than the Bible. It's easy to understand yet complex and powerful enough to warrant intense study and reading.

Can you give an example of a serious problem that exists in the bible, but is resolved by the BoM?

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- The Bible is as it currently is due to translation errors, malicious editing, and general mishandling over the years of its existence.

But the LDS still quotes from it, and uses it in their teachings I'd imagine. Why do you trust any part of the bible to be correct, or as it says in the articles of faith, "translated correctly"?

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- The Book of Mormon is different from the Bible in terms of transcribing due to it being translated STRAIGHT from the source material by the sheer power of God. Or at least that's our firm belief. It went from symbols on ancient American metal plates straight to common English. Joseph Smith even copied some of the characters from the plates and then the translation for them and then sent them off to an expert for a certificate of authenticity. The first person they went to was actually about to clear it, saying it was a remarkable 1:1 translation, but when he heard who exactly was requesting the certificate, he tore it up purely because he didn't want to be associated with the church.

I read somewhere that the BoM has gone through something like 20+ changes between then and now. Is this true? If so, doesn't this present the same problem?

Also, wasn't "Reformed Egyptian" supposed to be completely unknown? Isn't it still completely unknown to the rest of the modern world? How could there exist an expert for Joseph Smith to send documents to? Was this expert somehow the only other person in the world capable of translating this language? Why didn't this expert teach anybody else about Reformed Egyptian?

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- Define: special protection. If you mean in terms of entropy/editing over time like the Bible, this makes no sense. The Book of Mormon doesn't need protection. You can read the first edition of it freely if you really want to.

I was attempting to ask: "What makes you so sure that what happened to the bible won't also happen to the BoM?"


OK, here's how I see it. If you're really incredibly curious and are earnestly trying know what's going on here as I think you are, I HIGHLY recommend you read the Book of Mormon. It will answer a lot of your questions and give you a basis on which to discuss things with me. I'd rather not go over every single little facet of our religion in forum posts. I can answer three, maybe four in-depth questions for you, but more than that and it just gets tiring, and I feel like I'm an answering service. Furthermore, I think you'd get better more precise answers through our website and the BoM.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:08:18 PM by Arnox »

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Re: What are your religions beliefs, if any?
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2018, 01:10:09 PM »
OK, here's how I see it. If you're really incredibly curious and are earnestly trying know what's going on here as I think you are, I HIGHLY recommend you read the Book of Mormon. It will answer a lot of your questions and give you a basis on which to discuss things with me. I'd rather not go over every single little facet of our religion in forum posts. I can answer three, maybe four in-depth questions for you, but more than that and it just gets tiring, and I feel like I'm an answering service. Furthermore, I think you'd get better more precise answers through our website and the BoM.

Okay. Thanks for the time you've spent so far. This was fun.