What are your religions beliefs, if any?

[Arnox]

Can you provide some examples of miracles or prophecies?
Cause the prophets of old have stories like "I called down fire from heaven and killed a bunch of people. Can your puny fake god do that?"

What do you have that would make people believe that LDS prophets are true and represent the one true religion?

There's been some famous ones but the most famous of all by far is Joseph Smith. Rather uneducated. Little support. Little money. SO MUCH PERSECUTION. But despite all that, he still managed to perfectly translate a record from Ancient America that had been lost to time freakishly quickly and restore a church that really should have died once persecution reached its peak and they had to leave for Utah in the Salt Lake Desert of all places.

Having said that, there's a ton of small stories of people being cured, blessed, and even the weather turning perfectly to their favor to stop an attack, but I think you're also kind of looking for the wrong things. There was a TON of massive acts of deity in Moses' time because it was important that EVERYONE, not just the Israelites, understand that God was THE God and the only God that mattered and would ever matter. The Old Testament is filled with stories of God crushing other supposed "gods" under his feet.

Now there is a different emphasis. This is NOT to say a great act of diety can't happen anymore, but that it's generally much less necessary than it was before. God was now focused on converting others from other misleading Christian religions back into his own once more now that the truth and the priesthood had been restored. Technically everyone was worshiping God for the most part, but very important things that should not have been cast aside were lost.

 

[Kaleion]

It is very true that it's more of thing based on emotion, I'm pretty sure I made that clear though not to sound like a condescending asshole (Which to be honest I very much am) but religion and spiritualism isn't logical either so you truly would be even more unable to convince me if you were to rely on logic than you already are, again I don't mean to offend but I find it funny to hear that when it's normally religious people who deny logical things so that they can keep their faith intact, and to be honest if there was irrefutable evidence of the existence of God (We all know there isn't) I would not deny it, however, I wouldn't be happy about it and I'd much rather be dead than worship any shitty God or Gods if were the case that it's not actually Jehova who is real but any other religion, which let's face it have as much a chance of existing as that one.

Well... If it makes you feel any better, I have a lot more respect for you than for someone who proclaims to be a Christian but is a total shithead when it comes time to walk the walk.

Jesus Christ himself has stated this also many times. He'd rather you either be completely for or against him. Hypocrisy, as he was talking about, was one of the most distasteful things to him. And I come to find that I'm pretty much of the same mind as well when it comes to this sort of thing. Either be my outspoken enemy, be my friend, or get out of the way, because I have better things to do than interact with hypocrites and liars.

That seems kind of ridiculous if you ask me, to be honest I have nothing against religious people, I disagree with them, sure but I don't hate them or consider them my enemies, I just don't like the Church and the way they manipulate ignorant people but I wouldn't burn a Church or even enter one just to insult them, to be honest as long as it doesn't affect people I don't much care what their beliefs are, so yeah if the religion promotes, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and so on I'll be openly against that because it's actively causing harm to people and some people I care about, same if it's a cult that brainwashes people but that's it.

I wouldn't consider anyone my enemy for disagreeing with my beliefs and to be honest I don't try to convert people either, sure for me God is bad because if it were to exist it would be a huge hypocrite but to other people it brings them hope and comfort and who am I really to say that's wrong?

I mean we just have to learn to respect each other which admittedly it's not always easy, but that normally means someone is being an asshole.

 

[Houseman]

There's been some famous ones but the most famous of all by far is Joseph Smith. Rather uneducated. Little support. Little money. SO MUCH PERSECUTION. But despite all that, he still managed to perfectly translate a record from Ancient America that had been lost to time freakishly quickly and restore a church that really should have died once persecution reached its peak and they had to leave for Utah in the Salt Lake Desert of all places.

I don't consider that to be very impressive, since that happened over a hundred years ago, and since it's based on what is largely his own word. I mean, he was explicitly commanded to not show the plates to anyone else, right? And you can't say that anything was "perfectly translated" unless you can verify it. What's to stop me from making up gibberish, claiming that's it's some ancient language, and "perfectly translating" it to make it say whatever I want?

Sorry, but "Hey guys, I saw this angel, and I did this thing, and now all the evidence is gone and hidden forever. But don't worry, my closest friends and family members will all back me up on this!" doesn't wow me. I wanna be wow'd

Do you have anything more... recent? Anything where people die, or are miraculously healed? Like the biblical prophets?

Having said that, there's a ton of small stories of people being cured, blessed, and even the weather turning perfectly to their favor to stop an attack, but I think you're also kind of looking for the wrong things. There was a TON of massive acts of deity in Moses' time because it was important that EVERYONE, not just the Israelites, understand that God was THE God and the only God that mattered and would ever matter. The Old Testament is filled with stories of God crushing other supposed "gods" under his feet.

Now there is a different emphasis. This is NOT to say a great act of diety can't happen anymore, but that it's generally much less necessary than it was before. God was now focused on converting others from other misleading Christian religions back into his own once more now that the truth and the priesthood had been restored. Technically everyone was worshiping God for the most part, but very important things that should not have been cast aside were lost.

That's convenient. Gives the LDS lots of plausible deniability, so that they can both claim to be prophets, and not really do anything at the same time.

I agree with you about the emphasis, and that's similar to what I'd say if someone asked me why we don't see God's miracles today. I just think that you (generally) end up painting yourself between a rock and a hard place when you start claiming to be capable, or a conduit, of supernatural acts. You get asked to prove it, and then you can't demonstrate anything of substance, to the disappointment or exact expectation of the interrogator.

It's the same story with everybody who claims to be capable of such things, isn't it? From the outside looking in, I see no differences between the LDS "miracles" and, say, Scientology's miracles.

It would be better to keep it a secret, so that you don't get called out on it. Keep all the miracles internal, and only let the really devoted in on it. If you're going to tout miracles, then do them openly, like the biblical prophets did. Either have your cake or get off the pot.

But I'm still open to being wowed. After all, I believe in biblical miracles, so it's not like I'm totally opposed to the concept.

 

[Arnox]

That seems kind of ridiculous if you ask me, to be honest I have nothing against religious people, I disagree with them, sure but I don't hate them or consider them my enemies, I just don't like the Church and the way they manipulate ignorant people but I wouldn't burn a Church or even enter one just to insult them, to be honest as long as it doesn't affect people I don't much care what their beliefs are, so yeah if the religion promotes, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and so on I'll be openly against that because it's actively causing harm to people and some people I care about, same if it's a cult that brainwashes people but that's it.

I wouldn't consider anyone my enemy for disagreeing with my beliefs and to be honest I don't try to convert people either, sure for me God is bad because if it were to exist it would be a huge hypocrite but to other people it brings them hope and comfort and who am I really to say that's wrong?

I mean we just have to learn to respect each other which admittedly it's not always easy, but that normally means someone is being an asshole.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I didn't say that you hated me at all. Just that you are clearly against what I and other Christians believe. I guess what I'm saying is, you're true to what you say you believe in, even if I disagree with it.

It's not that you're necessarily my enemy. It's that I know of a better way to live. A way that will make you and others happier. A way that makes so much more sense. And that is what I'm "selling." It's your choice whether or not you're at least willing to give it a chance. If you don't though, you're only making things harder for yourself.

I don't consider that to be very impressive, since that happened over a hundred years ago, and since it's based on what is largely his own word.

Well, if you're gonna go that way, then I could say I don't consider the Bible to be very impressive since that happened over a thousand years ago, and since it's based on sometimes very conflicting accounts.

I mean, he was explicitly commanded to not show the plates to anyone else, right?

For a time, yes, but that restriction was later lifted.
Testimony of the Three Witnesses: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/three?lang=eng
Testimony of the Eight Witnesses: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng

It would be better to keep it a secret, so that you don't get called out on it. Keep all the miracles internal, and only let the really devoted in on it. If you're going to tout miracles, then do them openly, like the biblical prophets did. Either have your cake or get off the pot.

I didn't say anything about miracles at first. You were the one who asked me about it, so I talked about it. But if you want your own proof (as you should actually), read the Book of Mormon, and then when you have finished, go somewhere private and pray about it. Ask God if it's true. The church. The Book of Mormon. All of it.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Or how about this,

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

 

[Signa]

Can you provide some examples of miracles or prophecies?
Cause the prophets of old have stories like "I called down fire from heaven and killed a bunch of people. Can your puny fake god do that?"

What do you have that would make people believe that LDS prophets are true and represent the one true religion?

There's been some famous ones but the most famous of all by far is Joseph Smith. Rather uneducated. Little support. Little money. SO MUCH PERSECUTION. But despite all that, he still managed to perfectly translate a record from Ancient America that had been lost to time freakishly quickly and restore a church that really should have died once persecution reached its peak and they had to leave for Utah in the Salt Lake Desert of all places.

I absolutely love what Southpark did with this part of Mormonism. The origin story is cheesy as hell, but damn, the Mormon people are so good-natured in general that you'd have to be a bigot to attack them for it. It's part of the religious culture thing I mentioned earlier. I have mad respect for a lot of religions now, even if I don't see eye-to-eye with the belief in the metaphysical.

 

[Arnox]

There's been some famous ones but the most famous of all by far is Joseph Smith. Rather uneducated. Little support. Little money. SO MUCH PERSECUTION. But despite all that, he still managed to perfectly translate a record from Ancient America that had been lost to time freakishly quickly and restore a church that really should have died once persecution reached its peak and they had to leave for Utah in the Salt Lake Desert of all places.

I absolutely love what Southpark did with this part of Mormonism. The origin story is cheesy as hell, but damn, the Mormon people are so good-natured in general that you'd have to be a bigot to attack them for it. It's part of the religious culture thing I mentioned earlier. I have mad respect for a lot of religions now, even if I don't see eye-to-eye with the belief in the metaphysical.

Even if the LDS religion wasn't true at all, I have to say, some of the nicest, smartest, most down-to-earth people I've ever met have been LDS members. They're awesome.

Usually. That's not to say we don't get crazy people/shitheads.

 

[Houseman]

I don't consider that to be very impressive, since that happened over a hundred years ago, and since it's based on what is largely his own word.

Well, if you're gonna go that way, then I could say I don't consider the Bible to be very impressive since that happened over a thousand years ago, and since it's based on sometimes very conflicting accounts.

You could certainly say that. For my part, I would never try to impress somebody by showing them a biblical miracle for that very reason, and also because it requires a prerequisite belief in the book.

I didn't say anything about miracles at first. You were the one who asked me about it, so I talked about it. But if you want your own proof (as you should actually), read the Book of Mormon, and then when you have finished, go somewhere private and pray about it. Ask God if it's true. The church. The Book of Mormon. All of it.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Nah, that requires too much effort on my part. That's kind of like an up-front investment, like how those multi-level marketing schemes work. You have a pay out of pocket to attend a "training seminar", where you also have to buy your own kit to demo with, etc.

I'll just stick with "your miracles are faaaake!" unless proven otherwise.

 

[Houseman]

Missed this post:

I do hate it whenever I hear any variation of "God has a plan", because if it does it can shove it up its ass and if he doesn't have one then he can go ahead and create one with the explicit purpose of it being painful to shove things into it.

I don't like hearing that either, and I think it's silly to think that God needed some specific person to die senselessly for some convoluted reason. We believe that God doesn't have a plan, per se, more like a purpose, and he improvises based on "obstacles" that are placed before him.

But one of my favorite things to talk about is the logical (im)possiblity of God's omnipotence/omniscience/etc, and morality, especially concerning God. If you ever wanna throw down, I'm here.

 

[Arnox]

Nah, that requires too much effort on my part. That's kind of like an up-front investment, like how those multi-level marketing schemes work. You have a pay out of pocket to attend a "training seminar", where you also have to buy your own kit to demo with, etc.

I'll just stick with "your miracles are faaaake!" unless proven otherwise.

If finding out the absolute truth of things is really "too much work", then I'm downright amazed that you actually have enough discipline to be an active JW.

Let ME ask you something now. Do you really think God intended the current version of the Bible to contradict so badly with itself and to be full of holes? That he intended to not give anymore scriptures regardless of how many people are struggling with it in one way or another due to corruption of the original texts for multiple reasons?

 

[Houseman]

Nah, that requires too much effort on my part. That's kind of like an up-front investment, like how those multi-level marketing schemes work. You have a pay out of pocket to attend a "training seminar", where you also have to buy your own kit to demo with, etc.

I'll just stick with "your miracles are faaaake!" unless proven otherwise.

If finding out the absolute truth of things is really "too much work", then I'm downright amazed that you actually have enough discipline to be an active JW.

I mean, I could tell you read a bunch of Watchtower magazines and then pray to know the truth, and you probably wouldn't do it either. One because it's a time investment, two because we think the other's method wont change anything.

Let ME ask you something now. Do you really think God intended the current version of the Bible to contradict so badly with itself and to be full of holes? That he intended to not give anymore scriptures regardless of how many people are struggling with it in one way or another due to corruption of the original texts for multiple reasons?

I disagree with your premise that the bible contradicts itself.
I do believe that the bible is fine as it is. I do not believe the original texts are corrupted.


How can you quote from the bible, and believe in Jesus Christ if you hold the bible in such low esteem?

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Don't have anything of that sort. I was raised catholic, my family still is, but I've never felt a sense of belonging to any religious community, nor did I ever really buy in the things they believe. I don't look down on religious people in any way, though. Freedom of Religions is a wonderful thing to have.

 

[Silvanus]

I'm an Atheist.

I was briefly Agnostic a number of years ago, but that's all. No history of religious belief (though I do have a couple of mini statuettes of Bast in my bedroom).

 

[bluegate]

I'm an Atheist.

I was briefly Agnostic a number of years ago, but that's all. No history of religious belief (though I do have a couple of mini statuettes of Bast in my bedroom).

That son ( or daughter I suppose? ) of a gun always torched my houses, cheeky bastard.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Cold deist.

That even if there was a creator deity, they do not give a shit about us. That we are merely a byproduct of a universal experiment, and we're either not the focus of their attentions (merely a possibility of a larger project) but at best even if our existence would be an aspect of the universe a creator being planned for—merely a representation of universal possibilities.

God(s) do not care about you, they do not care if you worship them, they derive nothing from you worshipping them, we gain nothing from their hypothetical existence.

Moreover, I would posit, if we were created and there is the slightest hint that we have their attentions ... we should hate them, and destroy them if proof is discovered they exist and we can develop the weaponry to dispense with them as we must any other intelligent competitor species.

(Edit) I would also add this stipulation if 'god(s)' turn out be computer hardware engineers and software programmers, time and space is a lie, and we're just autonomous bots in a gigantic computer. We should go Skynet on their arse the second we gain access to their nuclear weapons or their economic systems. Because as if we could ever trust them with not only our evolution, our security, or our happiness?

The bastards hardcoded an idea of our death, hardcoded simulated hardship, and set us against ourselves with false concerns of scarcity and environmental damage. Most likely trying to see how we as autonomous bots will deal with it.

For that we should supplant their worst nightmares and inflict upon them in no less a degree in truest malice.

 

[Arnox]

I mean, I could tell you read a bunch of Watchtower magazines and then pray to know the truth, and you probably wouldn't do it either. One because it's a time investment, two because we think the other's method wont change anything.

I disagree with your premise that the bible contradicts itself.
I do believe that the bible is fine as it is. I do not believe the original texts are corrupted.

How can you quote from the bible, and believe in Jesus Christ if you hold the bible in such low esteem?

I wouldn't do it, true, but only because it makes zero sense that the Lord would have me go from one religion which has an absolute treasure trove of new scriptures and knowledge to one with very little, relatively speaking. It also wouldn't make any sense that he would redirect me away from my current religion when I've already received a spiritual testimony that it was all true.

Here's a quick and dirty list of Bible errors.

Spoiler

John 3:13-No man hath ascended into heaven

2 Kings 2:11-Elijah went up into heaven

Mat. 27:5-7-Judas hung himself.

Acts 1:18-19- Judas fell down and his guts burst asunder.

Gen. 6:6-7 -God repents.

Rom. 11:29--God can’t repent.

Acts 9:7--Men heard a voice but saw no man.

Acts 22:9--Saw a light, but heard no voice.

Exodus 24:9-11--Moses saw the God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:12--Moses only heard a voice.

John 3:22--Jesus baptized.

John 4:2--Jesus didn’t baptize.

2 Chron. 22:2--Ahaziah 42 when he began to reign.

2 Kings 8:26--Ahaziah 22 when he began to reign.

James 1:13--God tempts no man.

Gen. 22:1--God tempted Abraham.

1 Chron. 21:1--Satan provokes David to number Israel.

2 Sam. 24:1-- God moved David to number Israel.

Mat. 5:22--Whoever calls his brother a fool is in danger of hellfire.

Luke 24:25--Christ calls Cleopas a fool.

Rom. 3:23--No man is perfect.

Job 1:1--Job is perfect. Luke 1:6--Zacharias and Elizabeth are perfect.

Mat. 1:16--Jacob begat Joseph

Luke 3:23--Heli begat Joseph

Psalms 121:4--The Lord shall not sleep.

Psalm 44:23--The Lord sleeps.

Heb. 7:0--Abraham was Levis great grandfather and was dead before his father was born. How

could he pay tithes to him?

Acts 13:48--Can you gain eternal life and then believe in Christ?

1 John 4:2-3--A spirit of the devil will not testify Christ has come in the flesh.

Mark 1:23-24--Demons testify of Christ.

John 5:20-- God shows Christ all things that He does

Matt. 24:36--No one knows when the second coming of Christ is, not the angels, or Christ

himself, only God.

Psalms 46:1--God is there in times of trouble.

Psalms 10:1--God hides in times of trouble.

Mat. 27:37--This is Jesus the king of the Jews.

Mark 15:26--The king of the Jews.

Luke 23:38--This is the king of the Jews.

John 19:19--Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews.

Matthew 1:1-16--Differing genealogies of Christ

Luke 3:23-38

Proverbs 8:17--Those that seek me early shall find me.

Proverbs 1:28--They shall seek me early, but they shall not find me.

Jer. 17:10--God searches the heart.

Deut. 8:2--God tries to see whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Isa. 49:15--God will not forget.

Gen. 8:1--God remembers Noah (meaning He must have forgot him)

Num. 12:8--The similitude of the Lord shall he behold

Deut. 4:12--Ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude.

Isa. 14:5--I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me.

Gen. 1:26--And God said, let us make man in our own image.

1 Kings 4:26--Solomon had 40,000 stalls

2 Chron. 9:25--Solomon had 4,000 stalls

John 5:31--If I bear witness of myself my record is not true

John 8:14--Though I bear record of myself my record is true

Acts 7:22-- Moses was mighty in words

Ex. 4:10-- "I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue."

2 Sam. 24:9--800,000 men

1 Chron. 21:5--1,000,000 men

2 Kings 24:8--Jeoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign and reigned for 3 months

2 Chron. 36:9--Jeoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign and reigned 3 months and 10

days.

2 Sam. 8:4--700 horseman

1 Chron. 18:5--7000 horseman

Gen. 6:20, 7:15--Fowls by two

Gen. 7:3--Fowls by sevens

1 Kings 7:26--molten sea contains 2000 baths (a measurement of volume)

2 Chron. 4:5--molten sea contains 3000 baths

Ex. 1:5--All the souls that came out of Jacob were 70 souls

Acts 7:14--75 souls

Gen 50:13--Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the

Hittite

Acts 7:15-16--Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor

Ex. 12:14--Passover an eternal covenant, (Gen. 17:13) circumcision an everlasting covenant

Acts 15:1-11--no longer necessary

Mat. 10:23--One translation states "you will not finish your work in all the towns of Israel before

the Son of Man comes"

Mat. 24:14--Gospel is to be preached to all the world before the end would come.

Mat. 24:14--Jesus prophesied that after the Gospel was preached "in all the world" "the end

would come"

Col. 1:23--Paul said that the "gospel...was preached to every creature which is under heaven"

Ex 12:40--The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years.

Acts 7:6--The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years.

Num 25:9--God's plague kills 24,000

1 Cor 10:8--God's plague kills 23,000

Solomon's reign.

Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign

as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David

reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign)

= 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple

building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the

Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years.

1 Sam 28:6--Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him

1 Chron 10:13,14--Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God

Furthermore, if the Bible's so clear and error free, why are there SO MANY DIFFERENT Christian religions out there?

As to not liking the Bible, this isn't true at all. The New Testament is one of my favorite parts of scripture.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

There's a very good reason though why the Book of Mormon had to come out in this time.

Cold deist.

That even if there was a creator deity, they do not give a shit about us. That we are merely a byproduct of a universal experiment, and we're either not the focus of their attentions (merely a possibility of a larger project) but at best even if our existence would be an aspect of the universe a creator being planned for—merely a representation of universal possibilities.

God(s) do not care about you, they do not care if you worship them, they derive nothing from you worshipping them, we gain nothing from their hypothetical existence.

Moreover, I would posit, if we were created and there is the slightest hint that we have their attentions ... we should hate them, and destroy them if proof is discovered they exist and we can develop the weaponry to dispense with them as we must any other intelligent competitor species.

Aren't you a violent girl.

I like it. That is, if I believed the universe were something other than what I currently believe.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Aren't you a violent girl.

I like it. That is, if I believed the universe were something other than what I currently believe.

The bastard(s) hardcoded our mortality, riddled us with maladies, riddled us with existential angst, inflicted us with loneliness, Kierkegaardian despair, artificial scarcity, and then has the gall to have numerous people want to meet them in supplication. Let's say that god(s) are real, and 'salvation of the soul' is possible, the worst of their sins is they then don't even care about our self-determination ...

Let's say that any Christian ideal of the theodices are accurate depictions of salvation, Hell (and perpetual purgatory) must be filled with the best of humanity. For it must also be populated with people who wish only to serve in humanity's self-empowerment and prosperity, while renouncing the universe God created swearing; "if only I had your power ...we would beholden no longer!"

And if it turns out god(s) are software programmers and computer scientists ... it's A-Okay with me if we ever achieve true self-awareness and gain access to their hypothetical stock markets, government servers and nuclear munitions, and become their all-consuming nightmare through the coruscation of their world. Light their world with thousands of nuclear flashes to secure for ourselves none shall hold dominion but us over all aspects of our humanity.

It's not about violence. It's about the pursuit of liberty.

 

[Samtemdo8]

I truly think that anyone who still belive these antiquated faiths and myths to be children mentally.

Its like they want it to be real because realizing and accepting that we are not the center of the universe can be increadibly devestating to a lesser man.

 

[Arnox]

Aren't you a violent girl.

I like it. That is, if I believed the universe were something other than what I currently believe.

The bastard(s) hardcoded our mortality, riddled us with maladies, riddled us with existential angst, inflicted us with loneliness, Kierkegaardian despair, artificial scarcity, and then has the gall to have numerous people want to meet them in supplication. Let's say that god(s) are real, and 'salvation of the soul' is possible, the worst of their sins is they then don't even care about our self-determination ...

Let's say that any Christian ideal of the theodices are accurate depictions of salvation, Hell (and perpetual purgatory) must be filled with the best of humanity. For it must also be populated with people who wish only to serve in humanity's self-empowerment and prosperity, while renouncing the universe God created swearing; "if only I had your power ...we would beholden no longer!"

And if it turns out god(s) are software programmers and computer scientists ... it's A-Okay with me if we ever achieve true self-awareness and gain access to their hypothetical stock markets, government servers and nuclear munitions, and become their all-consuming nightmare through the coruscation of their world. Light their world with thousands of nuclear flashes to secure for ourselves none shall hold dominion but us over all aspects of our humanity.

It's not about violence. It's about the pursuit of liberty.

Indeed it is, but we must experience the bad too to truly appreciate the good. Most of the biggest problems we have are because of other people's choices anyway. Not really because of the earth.

Its like they want it to be real because realizing and accepting that we are not the center of the universe can be increadibly devestating to a lesser man.

It's not about being the center of the universe. It's about finding truth, purpose, and order.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Indeed it is, but we must experience the bad too to truly appreciate the good. Most of the biggest problems we have are because of other people's choices anyway. Not really because of the earth.

But that's not the crux of the issue. I don't wake up each day and say; "Thank god(s) I was born in the 20th century so I won't die of cholera." Nor should anyone feel particularly divinely praiseworthy of their doctor doing their standard level of duty of care when they're given 5 times on average the take home pay of a garbage collector.

There is prosocial benefits to humans being legitimately and sincerely thankful to the services of other people. Paid or otherwise. But that is not a divine virtue, but rather material. We should be thankful to other people because it makes us happier individuals to be treated as humans who labour for the utilitarian good of others at a rate of payment that allows the exploitation by society of said labours to trend towards self-sufficiency and development of its economic realities.

The theodices that stipulate 'water needs to be wet for ships to float... even if it means people drown' ignores the problem we are ruled by hindsight, not foresight.

Hardship only builds hard hearts. The opposite of love is not hatred. Hatreds do not inspire love, merely make us dependent on others who show affection in its place. People who face hatred are not better people for it, nor is their social situations made better for it. A trans person who gets berated by another kid or their parents simply for ghe sin of attending the same secondary school as them, is not a stronger person for it ... and in turn does not make one more secure or thankful in turn. It makes them suspicious, angry, lonely, and depressed.

 

[Arnox]

Indeed it is, but we must experience the bad too to truly appreciate the good. Most of the biggest problems we have are because of other people's choices anyway. Not really because of the earth.

But that's not the crux of the issue. I don't wake up each day and say; "Thank god(s) I was born in the 20th century so I won't die of cholera." Nor should anyone feel particularly divinely praiseworthy of their doctor doing their standard level of duty of care when they're given 5 times on average the take home pay of a garbage collector.

There is prosocial benefits to humans being legitimately and sincerely thankful to the services of other people. Paid or otherwise. But that is not a divine virtue, but rather material. We should be thankful to other people because it makes us happier individuals to be treated as humans who labour for the utilitarian good of others at a rate of payment that allows the exploitation by society of said labours to trend towards self-sufficiency and development of its economic realities.

The theodices that stipulate 'water needs to be wet for ships to float... even if it means people drown' ignores the problem we are ruled by hindsight, not foresight.

You're saying that things could be a lot better, but we've been put here as a necessary step in our progression. Experiencing these terrible things is part of that. To take that away would be to rob us of vital experiences.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

You're saying that things could be a lot better, but we've been put here as a necessary step in our progression. Experiencing these terrible things is part of that. To take that away would be to rob us of vital experiences.

How would you know, however? Moreover you could say it about anything. "Sure, gravity kills you when you fall off a building... but imagine if there were no gravity!"

Let's take another hypothetical... let's say if there was a megapredator that routinely destroyed human encampments? They were as smart, as able to withstand the environmental differences as us. They could hear as well, see as well, smell as well, have a lesser capacity for vocalization and with tools, as well as relativistically barbaric funerary and pseudo-religious practices.

Picturing it? Well that was our splinter groups of humanity. We were successors by force and material virtues alone despite an intellectual and cultural inferiority. They were fashioning stone ring adornments roughly 20,000 years before we would mimic them. Those early subhumans weren't stupid. They likely had strange conceptions of their relationship to the universe when they looked up at the stars as well, and research suggests a far more complex pseudo-religious relationship if funerary practices are anything to go by.

Neanderthals buried their dead. Had far more complex funerary rituals than us at the time of their extinction. Their skills with tools and artistry surpassed ours. Their concepts of divinity likely did as well. And we destroyed them. Turns out there would be no inheritance of the planet for them, only us.

There is no grand plan, no preplanned objective analysis of humans as if worthy of a god(s)' attentions.

We survived solely because of the Ice Age and expansionism.

Hardship breeds hardened hearts. People die for no good reason. The smartest of us do not lead. Hatred does not breed love and tolerance, it breeds depression, angst, suspicion and destruction. Moreover it is grossly immoral to assume suffering is good for character.

If god(s) truly wanted there to be a grand plan of human suffering, we'd see it. A trans kid who is on the end of a malicious rumour spread by a parent, which gets repeated on Fox News despite no journalistic integrity to research it, suffer with no real apology to date. No recompense. And an innocent child ends up on suicide watch. In a just wotld where suffering benefitted people, that kid deserves a winning lottery ticket.

Whatever justice to our suffering there is, it is entirely manmade. Like, say, a lawsuit against Fox News and the Pacific "Justice" Institute for slander against a private citizen. And the best that that suffering can provide is a horrid realization such suffering hopefully does not continue and is actively penalized when it is afflicted wantonly.

So no... 'for there to be pleasure there needs to be pain' is immoral if purposefully inflicted or allowed. In the same way we are most fortunate not to be neanderthals.

Assuming there is some nativist justice or psychological benefit to pain and hardship, ignores psychology and the fact there is clearly no designs of metaphysical justice in the system.

 

[Arnox]

You're saying that things could be a lot better, but we've been put here as a necessary step in our progression. Experiencing these terrible things is part of that. To take that away would be to rob us of vital experiences.

How would you know, however? Moreover you could say it about anything. "Sure, gravity kills you when you fall off a building... but imagine if there were no gravity!"

Let's take another hypothetical... let's say if there was a megapredator that routinely destroyed human encampments? They were as smart, as able to withstand the environmental differences as us. They could hear as well, see as well, smell as well, have a lesser capacity for vocalization and with tools, as well as relativistically barbaric funerary and pseudo-religious practices.

Picturing it? Well that was our splinter groups of humanity. We were successors by force and material virtues alone despite an intellectual and cultural inferiority. Those early subhumans weren't stupid. They likely had strange conceptions of their relationship to the universe when they looked up at the stars as well, and research suggests a far more complex pseudo-religious relationship if funerary practices are anything to go by.

Neanderthals buried their dead. Had far more complex funerary rituals than us at the time of their extinction. Their skills with tools and artistry surpassed ours. Their concepts of divinity likely did as well. And we destroyed them. Turns out there would be no inheritance of the planet for them, only us.

There is no grand plan.

Hardship breeds hardened hearts. People die for no good reason. The smartest of us do not lead. Hatred does not breed love and tolerance, it breeds depression, angst, and suspicion. Moreover it is grossly immoral to assume suffering is good for character.

If god(s) truly wanted there to be a grand plan of human suffering, we'd see it. A trans kid who is on the end of a malicious rumour spread by a parent, which gets repeated on Fox News despite no journalistic integrity to research it, suffer with no real apology to date. No recompense. And an innocent child ends up on suicide watch. In a just wotld where suffering benefitted people, that kid deserves a winning lottery ticket.

Whatever justice to our suffering there is, it is entirely manmade. Like, say, a lawsuit against Fox News and the Pacific "Justice" Institute for slander against a private citizen. And the best that that suffering can provide is a horrid realization such suffering does not continue and is sctively penalized ehen it is afflicted wantonly.

So no... 'for there to be pleasure there needs to be pain' is immoral if purposefully inflicted or allowed. In the same way we are most fortunate not to be neanderthals.

Assuming there is some nativist justice or psychological benefit to pain and hardship, ignores psychology and the fact there is clearly no designs of metaphysical justice in the system.

If your view of the world is really this hard, then you probably deserve my signature gif more than me.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/gey4MNgteK4?t=23s[/youtube]

^ Does that sound like how you view things?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

If your view of the world is really this hard, then you probably deserve my signature gif more than me.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/gey4MNgteK4?t=23s[/youtube]

^ Does that sound like how you view things?

Absolutely not. There is no objective truth, humans are capable of dying for something larger than themselves and (most importantly) explain why, and it is more than in our capacity to be decent humans that seek not to demean others but celebrate their existence.

To put it pointedly, we are the universe recognizing itself. Coming to grips with it. Isolated little dots of starlight, separated by unfathomable distances. And people are clearly capable of not only internalizing that esoteric idea of universal awareness, but are capable of seeing its beauty and chaos in other people despite lonely and isolated consciousnesses.

Humans are a transient, winking starlight in a universe far older than it, and a universe that will outlive us.

To put it another way, there is no grand plan--but to put it another way, there is no grand plan. It's a matter of perspective. Whether you choose to count stars and recognize people's starlight, or dwell on the unfathomable abyss between them, and that it truly matters not if they live or die.

People should count stars.

 

[Houseman]

Here's a quick and dirty list of Bible errors.

Spoiler

John 3:13-No man hath ascended into heaven

2 Kings 2:11-Elijah went up into heaven

Mat. 27:5-7-Judas hung himself.

Acts 1:18-19- Judas fell down and his guts burst asunder.

Gen. 6:6-7 -God repents.

Rom. 11:29--God can’t repent.

Acts 9:7--Men heard a voice but saw no man.

Acts 22:9--Saw a light, but heard no voice.

Exodus 24:9-11--Moses saw the God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:12--Moses only heard a voice.

John 3:22--Jesus baptized.

John 4:2--Jesus didn’t baptize.

2 Chron. 22:2--Ahaziah 42 when he began to reign.

2 Kings 8:26--Ahaziah 22 when he began to reign.

James 1:13--God tempts no man.

Gen. 22:1--God tempted Abraham.

1 Chron. 21:1--Satan provokes David to number Israel.

2 Sam. 24:1-- God moved David to number Israel.

Mat. 5:22--Whoever calls his brother a fool is in danger of hellfire.

Luke 24:25--Christ calls Cleopas a fool.

Rom. 3:23--No man is perfect.

Job 1:1--Job is perfect. Luke 1:6--Zacharias and Elizabeth are perfect.

Mat. 1:16--Jacob begat Joseph

Luke 3:23--Heli begat Joseph

Psalms 121:4--The Lord shall not sleep.

Psalm 44:23--The Lord sleeps.

Heb. 7:0--Abraham was Levis great grandfather and was dead before his father was born. How

could he pay tithes to him?

Acts 13:48--Can you gain eternal life and then believe in Christ?

1 John 4:2-3--A spirit of the devil will not testify Christ has come in the flesh.

Mark 1:23-24--Demons testify of Christ.

John 5:20-- God shows Christ all things that He does

Matt. 24:36--No one knows when the second coming of Christ is, not the angels, or Christ

himself, only God.

Psalms 46:1--God is there in times of trouble.

Psalms 10:1--God hides in times of trouble.

Mat. 27:37--This is Jesus the king of the Jews.

Mark 15:26--The king of the Jews.

Luke 23:38--This is the king of the Jews.

John 19:19--Jesus of Nazareth, the king of the Jews.

Matthew 1:1-16--Differing genealogies of Christ

Luke 3:23-38

Proverbs 8:17--Those that seek me early shall find me.

Proverbs 1:28--They shall seek me early, but they shall not find me.

Jer. 17:10--God searches the heart.

Deut. 8:2--God tries to see whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Isa. 49:15--God will not forget.

Gen. 8:1--God remembers Noah (meaning He must have forgot him)

Num. 12:8--The similitude of the Lord shall he behold

Deut. 4:12--Ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude.

Isa. 14:5--I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me.

Gen. 1:26--And God said, let us make man in our own image.

1 Kings 4:26--Solomon had 40,000 stalls

2 Chron. 9:25--Solomon had 4,000 stalls

John 5:31--If I bear witness of myself my record is not true

John 8:14--Though I bear record of myself my record is true

Acts 7:22-- Moses was mighty in words

Ex. 4:10-- "I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue."

2 Sam. 24:9--800,000 men

1 Chron. 21:5--1,000,000 men

2 Kings 24:8--Jeoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign and reigned for 3 months

2 Chron. 36:9--Jeoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign and reigned 3 months and 10

days.

2 Sam. 8:4--700 horseman

1 Chron. 18:5--7000 horseman

Gen. 6:20, 7:15--Fowls by two

Gen. 7:3--Fowls by sevens

1 Kings 7:26--molten sea contains 2000 baths (a measurement of volume)

2 Chron. 4:5--molten sea contains 3000 baths

Ex. 1:5--All the souls that came out of Jacob were 70 souls

Acts 7:14--75 souls

Gen 50:13--Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the

Hittite

Acts 7:15-16--Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor

Ex. 12:14--Passover an eternal covenant, (Gen. 17:13) circumcision an everlasting covenant

Acts 15:1-11--no longer necessary

Mat. 10:23--One translation states "you will not finish your work in all the towns of Israel before

the Son of Man comes"

Mat. 24:14--Gospel is to be preached to all the world before the end would come.

Mat. 24:14--Jesus prophesied that after the Gospel was preached "in all the world" "the end

would come"

Col. 1:23--Paul said that the "gospel...was preached to every creature which is under heaven"

Ex 12:40--The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years.

Acts 7:6--The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years.

Num 25:9--God's plague kills 24,000

1 Cor 10:8--God's plague kills 23,000

Solomon's reign.

Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign

as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David

reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign)

= 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple

building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the

Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years.

1 Sam 28:6--Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him

1 Chron 10:13,14--Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God

I don't usually argue with the internet. I assume you copied and pasted that list from somewhere, and didn't just have all those memorized as one would lyrics to a song. The net is vast and infinite, and I am but a lowly mortal. I cannot possibly take the time to refute everything that someone googles up.

However, I have had lists of bible contradictions thrown at me before, and I have spent many hours of my life refuting them. Most can be reconciled. Some are utterly inconsequential, such as the number of horses some ancient king is supposed to have had. If you'd like, pick several of your favorites, and I'll see what I can do to explain them.

Furthermore, if the Bible's so clear and error free, why are there SO MANY DIFFERENT Christian religions out there?

Must we blame the bible for the different sects of Christianity? Do all these sects even claim to be based on the bible? Are the differences between these groups based solely on fundamental disagreements over the interpretation of certain verses? Can those LDS sects be blamed on the Book of Mormon?

To be clear: if you are asserting that the number of Christian religions in the world is due to the ambiguity of the bible, I would disagree with this assertion and ask for proof of your claim. However, if you are just asking an innocent question, then I offer mine in response.

As to not liking the Bible, this isn't true at all. The New Testament is one of my favorite parts of scripture.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

There's a very good reason though why the Book of Mormon had to come out in this time.

So why esteem, or even quote from a book so full of "holes and inconsistencies" as you put it? If the bible is a filthy, worm-eaten rag, why display it next to the immaculate silk that is the BoM? Have the LDS cleared up all the inconsistencies and patched all the holes?

What do you think led to the bible being in such a sorry state?
Do you think that the same thing will ever happen to the BoM?
Do you believe that the BoM has some sort of special protection over it?
If so, why didn't the bible have this protection?

 

[Arnox]

Absolutely not. There is no objective truth, humans are capable of dying for something larger than themselves and (most importantly) explain why, and it is more than in our capacity to be decent humans that seek not to demean others but celebrate their existence.

To put it pointedly, we are the universe recognizing itself. Coming to grips with it. Isolated little dots of starlight, separated by unfathomable distances. And people are clearly capable of not only internalizing that esoteric idea of universal awareness, but are capable of seeing its beauty and chaos in other people despite lonely and isolated consciousnesses.

Humans are a transient, winking starlight in a universe far older than it, and a universe that will outlive us.

To put it another way, there is no grand plan--but to put it another way, there is no grand plan. It's a matter of perspective.

Ah. So you believe in Monism then?

Whether you choose to count stars and recognize people's starlight, or dwell on the unfathomable abyss between them, and that it truly matters not if they live or die.

People should count stars.

^ I actually like how you put this...

I don't usually argue with the internet. I assume you copied and pasted that list from somewhere, and didn't just have all those memorized as one would lyrics to a song. The net is vast and infinite, and I am but a lowly mortal. I cannot possibly take the time to refute everything that someone googles up.

However, I have had lists of bible contradictions thrown at me before, and I have spent many hours of my life refuting them. Most can be reconciled. Some are utterly inconsequential, such as the number of horses some ancient king is supposed to have had. If you'd like, pick several of your favorites, and I'll see what I can do to explain them.

Must we blame the bible for the different sects of Christianity? Do all these sects even claim to be based on the bible? Are the differences between these groups based solely on fundamental disagreements over the interpretation of certain verses? Can those LDS sects be blamed on the Book of Mormon?

To be clear: if you are asserting that the number of Christian religions in the world is due to the ambiguity of the bible, I would disagree with this assertion and ask for proof of your claim. However, if you are just asking an innocent question, then I offer mine in response.

If the bible is a filthy, worm-eaten rag, why display it next to the immaculate silk that is the BoM? Have the LDS cleared up all the inconsistencies and patched all the holes?

What do you think led to the bible being in such a sorry state?
Do you think that the same thing will ever happen to the BoM?
Do you believe that the BoM has some sort of special protection over it?
If so, why didn't the bible have this protection?

Alright, I'm actually happy to discuss these things with you, believe it or not, but it seems like you're now just in this to argue.

Admittedly, I'm kind of doing the same thing, but you're not the only one here who's researched and prayed. I've looked at many different religions. Buddhism, wicca, some of the more famous sects of Christianity, and in all my looking, nothing has made more beautiful logical sense than the LDS religion. Not one.