The pro-transgender John Money argument

[Houseman]

The "John Money/David Reimer" argument goes like this:

Dr. John Money took David Reimer, (born Bruce), who suffered a botched circumcision as an infant, and made him into "Brenda". He encouraged his parents to treat him as though he were a girl. He resisted all attempts at social conditioning and hormone therapy, became depressed, learned the truth at age 14, underwent treatment to turn himself back into a guy, and eventually took his own life as an adult.

The pro-transgender argument, based on this, is that you just can't "socially condition" someone out of their "gender identity". Here we have an attempt at doing that, which backfired horribly, therefore, it just plain doesn't work. Therefore, "gender identity" is real and conversion therapy doesn't work! If gender identity is real, then it must be respected, and when people say that their assigned gender doesn't match their gender identity we should "listen and believe!"

Can you spot the flaw in this argument?

 

[Arnox]

In 2004, Reimer was grieving for the death of his brother, Brian, from a drug overdose two years earlier, and visited his grave every day.[43][9][44] He had recently lost his job,[9] had lost $65,000 in investments,[45] and had separated from his wife.[43][9][44] On the morning of 4 May 2004, Reimer killed himself with a shotgun[44][46] in his hometown of Winnipeg.[9] He was 38 years old.[43] He and Brian are buried in St. Vital Cemetery in Winnipeg.[47]

No mention of his childhood sexual trauma here or his current chosen identity in terms of why he committed suicide. Premature death of a loved one is very hard, and then you add financial issues, and THEN the loss of a marriage. It's clear that David never fully recovered from the death of his brother, and the increasingly shitty circumstances was making things worse, although I'm sure the possibility that he viewed his body as somewhat incomplete or damaged even now was also contributing. All these things together very probably pushed him over the edge.

You're probably going to argue that deviation from physical sex brings unhappiness, but two can play this game, and I know PLENTY of trans people who had found true happiness and stability in their transition. Yes, even when they were harassed and persecuted for it at times. Furthermore, it's already been shown in a past thread talking about all this that the brains of transgender peoples are different from cisgender brains. So this is not a psychological problem. This is a physiological problem. Generally speaking. Obviously there will be exceptions.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

There's no such thing as "gender identity". Your personality is formed by nurture, within the parameters set by nature. Every person has a unique DNA (and previously mentioned parameters), but shared attributes of their ancestry, mutated by circumstances of ecology and environment (radiation, genetic drift, mixing DNA, chemicals, etc). Social conditioning is very real, but it only works well if the conditioned person doesn't constantly have to face the cognitive dissonance of obvious lies. Unless it can be explained away by something above/out of their reach..

Not reading this Bio, what one can surmise from the OP's text is that his harsh and forced childhood treatment caused such severe trauma that his relapsed depression came to the point of ending his life. The usual turmoil of teenage changes alone can easily be mismanaged, but adding conversion therapy to it would explain the 50/50 suicide rate of "transgenders".

The flaw in the TQ+ movements logic is that is works backwards and is circular. To give an analogy, "the bible is the truth because it's gods infallible word, and god is infallible because the bible says so". "Don't question gods word/the bible" is equal to "Listen and Believe". They work backwards from "Listen and Believe" and derive that people who say they are another "gender identity" are speaking the truth. Hence why you "can't change gender identity".

 

[Houseman]

No mention of his childhood sexual trauma here

In the Wikipedia article, yes. In the short summary in my own words, no I did not. I did not include those details because they were irrelevant to the "pro-transgender" argument, and more specifically, the flaw in that argument.

You're probably going to argue that deviation from physical sex brings unhappiness

No, I'm just asking if you can spot the flaw in the logic used in the pro-transgender argument.

Furthermore, it's already been shown in a past thread talking about all this that the brains of transgender peoples are different from cisgender brains.

I don't recall, but I would guess that this has been "argued" in a past thread, but never conclusively proven to a scientific standard; it's probably not even the medical consensus.

But it seems to me that you do think that you do believe in the pro-transgender John Money argument, that John Money "proved the trans right". Is that true?

The flaw in the TQ+ movements logic is that is works backwards and is circular. To give an analogy, "the bible is the truth because it's gods infallible word, and god is infallible because the bible says so". "Don't question gods word/the bible" is equal to "Listen and Believe". They work backwards from "Listen and Believe" and derive that people who say they are another "gender identity" are speaking the truth. Hence why you "can't change gender identity".

Sure, but that's not the flaw in this specific "John Money" argument.

 

[Arnox]

In the Wikipedia article, yes. In the short summary in my own words, no I did not. I did not include those details because they were irrelevant to the "pro-transgender" argument, and more specifically, the flaw in that argument.

Oh, sorry, I just meant it doesn't say anything about sex or gender in the Death section.

But it seems to me that you do think that you do believe in the pro-transgender John Money argument, that John Money "proved the trans right". Is that true?

I think that everyone is different. In this specific John Money case, it proves just two things. One, that social conditioning can butt heads with physiological issues, and the physiological issues will probably win. And two, that David Reimer was happiest being a guy and that he committed suicide for mostly unrelated reasons.

As to the transgender argument, this could prove their case, yes, but it could also be used against them too, so in essence, this story doesn't actually advance any trans or conservative agenda.

 

[Houseman]

I mis-stated some things in my original post. I've edited it to correct it, and will post it again here:

"The pro-transgender argument, based on this, is that you just can't "socially condition" someone out of their "gender identity". Here we have an attempt at doing that, which backfired horribly, therefore, it just plain doesn't work. Therefore, "gender identity" is real and conversion therapy doesn't work! If gender identity is real, then it must be respected, and when people say that their assigned gender doesn't match their gender identity we should "listen and believe!""

The flaw that I was getting at, was this:

Pro-trans people argue that this proves that gender identity is real, and that conversion therapy doesn't work, but David's case was different in one crucial way

David:
Biology = male
"Assigned gender" = female
"Gender identity" = male

Trans person:
Biology = male
"Assigned gender" = male
"Gender identity" = female

In one case, the distress stems from going against one's biology.
In the other case, the distress stems from going against one's imagined "gender identity".

The two are not the same.