The enemies spawn infinitely

[Houseman]

I once thought I could help bring people to their senses. That I could wade deep in the sewers of propaganda and demoralization, and rescue a few open-minded souls. That I could stare into the abyss that is reddit, battle monsters, and not become one myself.

And for a time, I could. And perhaps I did rescue a few souls. Perhaps I did a little measure of good and woke people up to how they are being controlled and manipulated by the media, the governments, and the experts who are conspiring against the average man. If I helped even one person see how the real problem is not 'the left' or 'the right', but the ones who are trying to make them turn against their fellow man and hate him, then wouldn't it all be worth it?

Against a propaganda machine like reddit, there is no real 'winning'. Not only are you fighting bots, paid agents, and their demoralization algorithms, when you interact with it, you are giving them page views and metrics, and therefore helping them grow the machine itself. If you interact with the system, you become a part of the system, which serves to entrap more and more people. Whatever good you do is quickly replaced with more evil.

The enemies spawn infinitely. Sooner or later, you will lose. You are a normal person. You have a job, and even if you consider yourself to be chronically online, the time you spend there pales in comparison to those who are being paid to sow discord. You will be beaten down eventually. The fire within you will go out. It will corrupt you, over time, and then you'll just be one of them, serving to propagate the virus.

The best thing to do is to infiltrate, save just one person, and then never return. You must not become a casualty yourself.

Why even attempt that at all? Why not just stay away and let the pigs sit in their filth?
So that you can know how bad it can get. So that you can hopefully stop it from happening anywhere else.

 

[Arnox]

Hm. That's rather dramatic of you.

Even in Reddit's heyday, there (comparatively) weren't that many people using it. Now I'm sure user count is way worse what with the past moderator bullshit and the bot-inflated votes and the extremists without any active quarantine. Sure, it seems like most people on Reddit these days are extremists, but who even USES Reddit anymore as a serious place of discussion, putting aside the niche subreddits? The only major subreddit that hasn't been shut down yet that doesn't have extremists all over the place is /r/conservative, as far as I know, but even there, there are some eyebrow-raising policies. And even WITH Reddit being as utterly taken over as it is, sort comments by controversial in the popular subreddits, and you'll STILL see some dissenting opinions. Downvoted to hell, yes, but still. The fact that they're there, even in such a fuckhole as Reddit, is, I think, rather encouraging.

But Reddit is just another symptom of a much wider problem which is the dominance of popular social media. You're only seeing an aspect of it with Reddit, but it's been there for a very long time. I also think you're starting to feel how I've been feeling for a while now as well

One thing that hit kinda close to home though was the famous quote. "I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes." This is a quote from The Catcher in the Rye which expands out to, "That way I wouldn't have to have any goddam stupid useless conversations with anybody. If anybody wanted to tell me something they'd have to write it on a piece of paper and shove it over to me. They'd get bored as hell doing that after a while, and then I'd be through with having conversations for the rest of my life." I feel like this is exactly what I'm doing nowadays in many ways, throwing up my hands in frustration and divorcing myself from the world, both emotionally and spiritually. I'm tired of seeing people hurt and not listening. I don't want to care about this planet anymore, and I haven't for a while now, but perhaps I still have some growing of my own to do in that regard...

But... I guess we'll learn to care again together. Or not. It feels really damn nice to not care about the world anymore and to be separate from it, even if it does get a little lonely at times.

 

[Houseman]

Downvoted to hell, yes, but still. The fact that they're there, even in such a fuckhole as Reddit, is, I think, rather encouraging.

It's encouraging like how a gibbet is encouraging. Ah yes, look at the soon-to-be-corpse of this brave subversive, slowly dying of thirst, for daring to speak the truth! These prisoners are left alive, downvoted and buried as an example for the rest. "This will be you, unless you toe the line!"

And with reddit's most recent change, even upvoting activity that reddit doesn't like can earn you a 'warning'.

I also think you're starting to feel how I've been feeling for a while now as well

My feelings are more along the lines of:

Individuals can be reasoned with, but it's worse on reddit because some individuals, aren't. They aren't real people. Either they're bots, or they're paid to promote an opinion or sow discord. Worse, they actively disrupt your attempts to save others. They have more in common with demons than humans.

I'll say it, reddit is literally a demonic place.

I don't feel like detaching, or even a lack of empathy. I'm just saying you need to serve your tour of duty, and then get out.

 

[Arnox]

It's encouraging like how a gibbet is encouraging. Ah yes, look at the soon-to-be-corpse of this brave subversive, slowly dying of thirst, for daring to speak the truth! These prisoners are left alive, downvoted and buried as an example for the rest. "This will be you, unless you toe the line!"

Hey, nobody's forcing them to post there. Nobody's forcing YOU to post there. There's plenty of other much, much better places to go and be free. One of the greatest lies of popular social media is making you think that you HAVE to post at their shitty little sites and use their shitty little apps. You don't. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. You don't have to think anything you don't want to think. You have power over your own destiny and especially your time. And so does everybody else, even if they don't realize it.

Free your mind, man. For me, I've chosen my own path and to divorce myself somewhat from this world. You don't have to go as far as I have if you don't want to. But remember to pay close attention to what you give your time to. Give it to the things that truly need and deserve it. And Reddit's petty upvote/downvote bullshit and censorship in the popular subreddits certainly isn't one of them. At least in my opinion.

I'll say it, reddit is literally a demonic place.

ACCKKKTHUUALLLYYY... Demons promote individuality, breaking off from groups, and being your own person. Reddit is the antithesis of that, promoting censorship and groupthink.

I don't feel like detaching, or even a lack of empathy.

It wasn't a lack of empathy that made me want to detach and let go. It was the exact opposite. Seeing all this crap in general tore me apart too much for too long.

I'm just saying you need to serve your tour of duty, and then get out.

Hey, I did my time with Reddit. lmao I'm generally done with them. At this point, the people who continue to use such a fucked site are going to continue using it, and the ones who hate it have long since left it. In any case, Sanctuary is part of my "tour of duty" and my way of still giving back to others and trying to help them out. The only problem is that I just suck at promoting this site. lol

 

[Houseman]

Free your mind, man.

The motive here is to save others. To do that, you need to be able to talk to them. The most effective way of doing that is to go where they are.
Yes, unfortunately that is better than setting up your own corner of the internet and waiting for them to come to you. It might work for actual IRL buildings, because physical space is limited, but not on the internet unless you reach critical mass via the network effect (people go where people are).

But remember to pay close attention to what you give your time to

That's what I've been saying: get in, and get out, don't spend too much time there.

ACCKKKTHUUALLLYYY... Demons promote individuality, breaking off from groups, and being your own person. Reddit is the antithesis of that, promoting censorship and groupthink.

Demons promote individuality from God. They don't care what you do as long as you're kept away from God.

Reddit outwardly promotes "make a subreddit for anything! Make your own subreddit! Curate your own interests! A feed just for you!"
Demons lie, so too does reddit.

 

[Arnox]

The motive here is to save others.

Yes, I know, but it sounds like you're getting very demoralized simply because of some Reddit neckbeards and bots.

The most effective way of doing that is to go where they are.

If that were really your goal then you would be on TikTok, Instagram, and Twitter/Bluesky instead. I think what you mean to say is that Reddit is a place where a lot of people are that is the most tolerable place. But on both counts,

On the popular subreddits, you get a very narrow selection of people and """people"""" who will downvote and censor anything that doesn't appeal to their sensibilities. At least on the Twitter Two Minute Hate, your posts will still actually get seen, even if you get "ratioed".

Demons promote individuality from God. They don't care what you do as long as you're kept away from God.

Kinda. God represents conformity and the group being (generally) more important than the individual, so yes, but only because God falls in that category.

 

[Houseman]

Yes, I know, but it sounds like you're getting very demoralized simply because of some Reddit neckbeards and bots.

The enemies spawn infinitely.

If that were really your goal then you would be on TikTok, Instagram, and Twitter/Bluesky instead.

How conducive to long-form discussion are TikTok and Instagram? How do you have a back-and-forth conversation on those platforms? I'm pretty sure that you don't. To a lesser extent, the same is true for Twitter/Bluesky. Those are slightly better, but still limiting and in some respects, even worse because of blocklists, and also because there's less friction to block other users directly.

For reddit, you can at least have a discussion due to how comments are structured. You can also meet on "neutral ground", spaces that discourage or disallow blocking, and encourage healthy conversation.

"Reddit is a place where a lot of people are" is a sentence that needs no qualification. There also being a lot of bots and paid agents does not make that sentence any less true.

Kinda. God represents

God is real, not a concept.

 

[Arnox]

The enemies spawn infinitely.

And so do the allies. You're just looking at it from only one perspective.

How conducive to long-form discussion are TikTok and Instagram? How do you have a back-and-forth conversation on those platforms? I'm pretty sure that you don't. To a lesser extent, the same is true for Twitter/Bluesky. Those are slightly better, but still limiting and in some respects, even worse because of blocklists, and also because there's less friction to block other users directly.

As opposed to Reddit where if someone downvotes you too much, you get put on EVERYONE'S blocklist involuntarily. Also TikTok has streaming chat, but yes, it's not conducive to long-form discussions. But then again, Reddit is not super conducive to ANY discussions, period.

God is real

Citation needed. I mean, I believe he's real, but others don't, and you're stating this as a flat fact, so...

not a concept.

I should rephrase. I mean demons are opposed to (the Christian) God based on where God stands in the whole conformity vs. individuality issue. They're not opposed to conformity simply because that's where God stands.

 

[Signa]

I stopped fighting with people years ago at this point. Now my goal is to battle the ideas that posses them. Make a fool of anyone that holds them. Be the chaos forced back on itself. Those that could be saved would have been years ago. They are a horde now, and I can't stay my hand for those that refuse to see truth and let the ideas infect them. Anyone that sees value in destroying other people's property because they don't like the company that made it could never have been reasoned with, because they are not acting within reason.

I know how you feel Houseman, because I don't like the situation at all. But I can't ignore it, and I can't simply be a passive observer while I see people try to unmake society. I have to be as brutal as they would be, because they will be to me if we let them gain control again. Thankfully, at this stage, all that means is making comment wars on Youtube videos. It's all I'm really capable of anyway.

 

[Arnox]

I have to be as brutal as they would be, because they will be to me if we let them gain control again.

Get them before they get you first?

As I said to Houseman, you don't HAVE to do anything. And I do think people can still be talked to, but someone has to be brave and make an honest effort. Talking and reacting out of fear never benefits anyone and one person has the potential to change the world, for better or for ill. Also,

Personal feelings don't make for good politics, legal decisions, or business deals.

 

[Signa]

And I do think people can still be talked to, but someone has to be brave and make an honest effort. Talking and reacting out of fear never benefits anyone and one person has the potential to change the world, for better or for ill.

I used to think that before I saw how absolutely brainwashed these people are. I still give most people the benefit of the doubt, but there are key words and phrases that they use that makes it clear they aren't going to be convinced that they are actually harming everyone with their rhetoric. Basically, anyone convinced my Marxist arguments are a lost cause.

 

[Arnox]

I used to think that before I saw how absolutely brainwashed these people are.

Sometimes, the goal is not necessarily to persuade them completely that they're wrong but simply to get them to loosen up more and not be so extreme in their views. I think that alone is worth it.

 

[Houseman]

And so do the allies. You're just looking at it from only one perspective.

Allies would be other normal people, with jobs. The enemies, are those that are chronically online, paid agents, and bots. They either have no job, or their job is to post on reddit.
What's more, is that reddit specifically, is built to ban and demoralize the normal people as much as possible.

So if they respawn infinitely they spawn at a much much lower rate, and die much quicker. The two sides are not balanced.

Allies are also detrimental when trying to have a 1v1 conversation with someone. The other person may end up feeling dogpiled.

As opposed to Reddit where if someone downvotes you too much, you get put on EVERYONE'S blocklist involuntarily. Also TikTok has streaming chat, but yes, it's not conducive to long-form discussions. But then again, Reddit is not super conducive to ANY discussions, period.

Despite all that, reddit is still superior to tiktok/twitter/etc for having long discussions, especially given the possibility of "neutral ground".

I should rephrase. I mean demons are opposed to (the Christian) God based on where God stands in the whole conformity vs. individuality issue. They're not opposed to conformity simply because that's where God stands.

That's fair, and I agree.

Thankfully, at this stage, all that means is making comment wars on Youtube videos. It's all I'm really capable of anyway.

I've moved to the Steam forums. Those are fun!

 

[Arnox]

Allies would be other normal people, with jobs. The enemies, are those that are chronically online, paid agents, and bots. They either have no job, or their job is to post on reddit.
What's more, is that reddit specifically, is built to ban and demoralize the normal people as much as possible.

As I said though... Who's still using Reddit as a serious place for discussion anymore, Houseman? And even if a ton of people are, it doesn't matter. That's their choice. They want to metaphorically shoot themselves with shitty censorious systems and terrible admins, fine.

I'll always be willing to talk to a lot of people, but there are certain avenues where I think my efforts would be better focused on. And a lot of other people do think that as well. Every time I hear people talk about Reddit and Redditors anymore, it's always in pure derision. And that's a feat too because Reddit never really had the most sterling of reputations, even in its heyday.

So if they respawn infinitely they spawn at a much much lower rate, and die much quicker. The two sides are not balanced.

This is not a first-person shooter, Houseman. When there's an argument and the other side (supposedly) gets the upper hand, the other "defeated" party just goes somewhere else. They don't just magically blip out of existence. This is also why I don't think banning people for racist/sexist/etc. statements does any good at all.

Despite all that, reddit is still superior to tiktok/twitter/etc for having long discussions

The voting system is so atrocious in so many ways that I would disagree. Just because you can write long posts, doesn't necessarily mean a platform is in any capacity conducive to long-form discussion.

 

[Houseman]

I'll always be willing to talk to a lot of people, but there are certain avenues where I think my efforts would be better focused on.

I agree, and that's what I'm saying here. Reddit is not a place worth spending a lot of time on. Why are we arguing about this? Are you trying to persuade me to go back to reddit?

This is not a first-person shooter, Houseman.

You're correct, it's a metaphor, Arnox.

When there's an argument and the other side (supposedly) gets the upper hand, the other "defeated" party just goes somewhere else. They don't just magically blip out of existence.

They do when we're talking about the context of a single website. When people leave a website, it is as if they blip out of existence.

The voting system is so atrocious in so many ways that I would disagree. Just because you can write long posts, doesn't necessarily mean a platform is in any capacity conducive to long-form discussion.

When you're having a 1-on-1 conversation with someone, the voting system ceases to matter, because chances are, only you and the person on the other end are the only ones voting.

Reddit isn't great about starting a conversation with a large number of people.

 

[Arnox]

Why are we arguing about this?

Are you trying to persuade me to go back to reddit?

No.

They do when we're talking about the context of a single website. When people leave a website, it is as if they blip out of existence.

And go to another website. Or maybe just live their lives. I guess maybe what we're really arguing about here is the actual importance of Reddit. You say it's full of extremists and bots. I absolutely agree but am arguing that it doesn't matter because most people don't like or use Reddit anymore anyway. Sure, the crazy hobo may "own" a small little back-alley of the city in a practical sense, but it's a back-alley few people anymore even care about or maybe even visit.

When you're having a 1-on-1 conversation with someone, the voting system ceases to matter, because chances are, only you and the person on the other end are the only ones voting.

If you just care about the 1-on-1's, why not just PM people?

 

[Signa]

Right as I woke up today, Warren Smith posted this. Warren is a very kindhearted person, so he still has optimism here. I'm not a religious person, but religious metaphors work great here. That woman is possessed by a demon. She is filled with hatred and will not hear a kind word in anyone's favor. She doesn't hope she's wrong about anyone. She needs her enemies crushed for a perceived slight against her.

 

[Arnox]

Right as I woke up today, Warren Smith posted this. Warren is a very kindhearted person, so he still has optimism here. I'm not a religious person, but religious metaphors work great here. That woman is possessed by a demon. She is filled with hatred and will not hear a kind word in anyone's favor. She doesn't hope she's wrong about anyone. She needs her enemies crushed for a perceived slight against her.

I don't generally like videos like this simply because it's so easy to pick out some random retard from the crowd and then act like they are representative of the whole. Furthermore, I feel like a lot of this entire argument could have been bypassed altogether if the interviewer had just offered to show the interviewee the video. Once she's seen that, she may still not change her position but it should shake her opinion enough to think about things later on.

Another thing also needs to be kept in mind. People are generally not used to admitting when they're wrong, even in the best of circumstances, and this was on TV. She will, consciously or unconsciously, feel like she needs to "toe the line" and "maintain a strong front" against what she currently feels is the oppressors.

 

[Houseman]

I absolutely agree but am arguing that it doesn't matter because most people don't like or use Reddit anymore anyway.

I also agree here, especially if we take "most people" to include "all living humans".
I wouldn't call reddit a back-alley. I'd call this site a back-alley. This site is a cardboard box inside of a back alley, that is an offshoot from the main alley.

If you just care about the 1-on-1's, why not just PM people?

I think there is value from having other people potentially stumble upon and read the conversation, and I think having such a conversation in "public", is much less confrontational and intimidating than messaging people directly. People would probably get creeped out by that.

People have also tried to message me directly using new-reddit's chat feature, and it creeps me out.

Right as I woke up today, Warren Smith posted this. Warren is a very kindhearted person, so he still has optimism here. I'm not a religious person, but religious metaphors work great here. That woman is possessed by a demon. She is filled with hatred and will not hear a kind word in anyone's favor. She doesn't hope she's wrong about anyone. She needs her enemies crushed for a perceived slight against her.

I had a history teacher teach us the socratic method. We all sat in a circle and discussed the details and meaning behind some historical event. He was a lot of people's favorite teacher.

 

[Signa]

I also agree here, especially if we take "most people" to include "all living humans".
I wouldn't call reddit a back-alley. I'd call this site a back-alley. This site is a cardboard box inside of a back alley, that is an offshoot from the main alley.



I think there is value from having other people potentially stumble upon and read the conversation, and I think having such a conversation in "public", is much less confrontational and intimidating than messaging people directly. People would probably get creeped out by that.

People have also tried to message me directly using new-reddit's chat feature, and it creeps me out.




I had a history teacher teach us the socratic method. We all sat in a circle and discussed the details and meaning behind some historical event. He was a lot of people's favorite teacher.

Warren is awesome for that. I just see versions of that lady everywhere and reflections of her unwillingness to explore both side of an argument in the YouTube comment sections.

James Lindsey recently read a book about someone coming to terms with being a Nazi in Germany and how it took 20 years for her to realize how wrong she was and how easy it was to get wrapped up in what was popular at the time. I'm terrified that the reconditioning they put her through will be necessary to restore public order. We have psychopaths everywhere now and none of them are able to self reflect.

 

[Houseman]

https://nitter.poast.org/reddit_lies/status/1916916134630117814

"BREAKING: The University of Zurich has been using AI bots to secretly manipulate Redditors since November 2024.The scariest part?
The bots were 6 times more likely to change the minds of Redditors than the baseline, often by leveraging misinformation.
More below"

 

[Arnox]

The bots were 6 times more likely to change the minds of Redditors than the baseline, often by leveraging misinformation.

This is beyond old information. As we all well know, the voting system ALONE makes Reddit utterly ripe for abuse. Also, if you look at the actual comments the bots posted, you'll see that this supposed insanely effective method of argument was, uh... Lying. In the immortal words of JonTron, sky's the limit when you don't give a shit. And finally, Redditors aren't exactly known for their superb thinking skills. And this is all assuming that the bots weren't talking to more bots.

By the way, this all reminds me, I need to get that thread out on how to think critically. It's true that critical thinking may not cut through everything, but it is still ridiculously effective in getting past the usual bullshit.

 

[Gauche]

"BREAKING: The BLAH BLAH BLAH has been using AI bots

Attach people's names to the actions or be content

 

[Houseman]

Attach people's names to the actions or be content

Do you mean "The only way to have a human internet is for everyone to publicly share their real names"?

Because I think there are ways to post anonymously on the public-facing side, but you share your real name and private information with the a service for authentication before you are allowed to post. That's not ideal, because services may get hacked and then everyone finds out your private information anyway, but it's arguably a little bit better.

 

[Gauche]

Do you mean "The only way to have a human internet is for everyone to publicly share their real names"?

Because I think there are ways to post anonymously on the public-facing side, but you share your real name and private information with the a service for authentication before you are allowed to post. That's not ideal, because services may get hacked and then everyone finds out your private information anyway, but it's arguably a little bit better.

No, I just find associating who conducted/funded the experiment far more useful instead of "researchers from" - rubs me as rather low effort info sharing - are you not doing yourself a disservice by not looking further into it? Some fuckers took peeps out for a ride and are reaping benefits for it. Is that not to be condoned? Are they gonna do it again? Are their bot accounts free to do it all again? Has our every interaction been a farce? HOUSEMAN! HOUSEMANNNNN!!!