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Mormons, worthiness interviews and #MeToo

Houseman

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Content stolen from Reddit.

So some ex-mormon bishop is on a hunger strike, protesting how children are supposedly treated in the LDS organization.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/07/30/ex-lds-bishop-starts/

Possibly due to questions like these:
Questions being asked by Bishops and Stake Presidents and Mission Presidents

Documented over and over and over in the Sacred Stories on protectldschildren.org

Do you masturbate?
Do you know what a vagina is?
What were you thinking of while you masturbated?
When was the last time you watched pornography?
What type of pornography do you watch?
Do you masturbate while you watch pornography?
Where and how did your boyfriend touch you?
Where your nipples hard?
Did you get wet?
Where were his fingers?
Where was your underwear?
What color were your panties ?
Did you orgasm?
Did you know that once boys reach a certain level of arousal, they have no choice but to keep going? That hey can no longer stop their sexual advances
Describe the sexual positions you engaged?
Did you engage in oral sex?
Did she orgasm?
Did you ejaculate?
How many times did he ejaculate?
Where did he ejaculate?
Did you engage in anal sex?
Did the boy ejaculate in your mouth?
Did you put your mouth on her vagina, or use your fingers?
Did he touch your breasts?
Did you touch his penis?
Did he penetrate you?
To a rape victim:
Did you like it?
What did you do to egg him on?
What were you wearing?
Did you orgasm?

As a JW, similar accusations are made against us, that the Elders of our congregations ask similarly invasive questions in certain situations, so I'm a bit biased. I believe that both us and them have their reasons as to why they do what they do. For us, in cases of serious sin (example: an admission of premarital sex) any questions we'll ask help to determine the severity, what course needs to be taken and what counsel needs to be given. For cases of rape, we'd probably ask similar questions for similar reasons. I don't have any sort of list on-hand, but I'd believe it, and I can see an explanation for it.

I find the "rape questions" interesting, because in this era, women must be listened to and believed without question, and they can ruin someone else's life with an accusation, no evidence needed. Sex you've regretted in the morning can be rape, as long as you accuse fast enough. This interrogation process, removed from the court of public opinion, exists in stark contrast to that culture. It dares to question how innocent a victim really is.

Even if the intent of the questions is just to humiliate someone else, I could see that having a use. It could be a test for how obedient and humble one is, how willing they are to repent and accept correction. I'm not saying that these questions are truly asked, or that this is truly the reason why they are asked, but only that this is an explanation that I could accept.

What do you think? Should these questions ever be asked, even in the context of religion? Is it wrong to question a rape victim?
 

Arnox

Master
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A whole lot of those questions look really out of context. Maybe all of them but I'm willing to at least give the accusers a bit of the benefit of the doubt. Even if the members were asked inappropriately though, we have never ever claimed our church leaders are perfect at all. Hell, my father knew a guy who used to be on the ward council that secretly used to watch his younger daughter undress. Obviously he was stripped of his position once people found out about it, but the point I'm making is, to try and say that our church is awful because some people are not doing what they're supposed to be doing in our church is pretty stupid.
 

Houseman

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Arnox said:
A whole lot of those questions look really out of context. Maybe all of them but I'm willing to at least give the accusers a bit of the benefit of the doubt. Even if the members were asked inappropriately though, we have never ever claimed our church leaders are perfect at all. Hell, my father knew a guy who used to be on the ward council that secretly used to watch his younger daughter undress. Obviously he was stripped of his position once people found out about it, but the point I'm making is, to try and say that our church is awful because some people are not doing what they're supposed to be doing in our church is pretty stupid.
So it isn't protocol to ask these types of questions, or to pursue such a line of questioning?
 

Arnox

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Houseman said:
Arnox said:
A whole lot of those questions look really out of context. Maybe all of them but I'm willing to at least give the accusers a bit of the benefit of the doubt. Even if the members were asked inappropriately though, we have never ever claimed our church leaders are perfect at all. Hell, my father knew a guy who used to be on the ward council that secretly used to watch his younger daughter undress. Obviously he was stripped of his position once people found out about it, but the point I'm making is, to try and say that our church is awful because some people are not doing what they're supposed to be doing in our church is pretty stupid.
So it isn't protocol to ask these types of questions, or to pursue such a line of questioning?
These are the standard worthiness questions:

http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/templerecommend.htm

In that link, it also states very clearly that generally, interviewers are NOT to deviate from the questions. Also,

Handbook 1 of the General Handbook of Instructions said:
Interviewers should not add any requirements to those that are outlined in the temple recommend book.
 

Houseman

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Wow, then that makes these accusations, if true, so much worse. I mean, instructions are clearly being disobeyed here.

But hey, maybe it's just really hard to make your authorities follow the rules, or maybe the numbers are just so huge that even if a small percentage step out of line, it ends up being a large number of affected ones.

What are some solutions you could think to decrease this problem? One way I could think of is to stop having these meetings be one-on-one. Checks and balances. Have there be another person there (of a similar or higher rank, to ensure privacy) whose job it is to ensure that the one conducting the interview conducts it correctly. That's how JW stuff is handled, even with adults.

I understand the #NotAllMormons defense, but at a certain point, you have to wonder if a problem isn't systemic, and that the solution, or at least something that'll decrease the severity of the problem, can be found by changing the system itself. I'm not saying that the problem, if it exists, has reached this point, or that it is systemic, but if there exists a solution that could help, but the solution is not implemented, you have to ask whether the system is set up properly.
 

Arnox

Master
Staff member
Founder
Messages
5,285
Houseman said:
Wow, then that makes these accusations, if true, so much worse. I mean, instructions are clearly being disobeyed here.

But hey, maybe it's just really hard to make your authorities follow the rules, or maybe the numbers are just so huge that even if a small percentage step out of line, it ends up being a large number of affected ones.

What are some solutions you could think to decrease this problem? One way I could think of is to stop having these meetings be one-on-one. Checks and balances. Have there be another person there (of a similar or higher rank, to ensure privacy) whose job it is to ensure that the one conducting the interview conducts it correctly. That's how JW stuff is handled, even with adults.

I understand the #NotAllMormons defense, but at a certain point, you have to wonder if a problem isn't systemic, and that the solution, or at least something that'll decrease the severity of the problem, can be found by changing the system itself. I'm not saying that the problem, if it exists, has reached this point, or that it is systemic, but if there exists a solution that could help, but the solution is not implemented, you have to ask whether the system is set up properly.
Worse against those who actually abuse the rules, yes. Against the church, no. If church leaders are deviating way too much from prescribed practice then that needs to be investigated by those involved.

Furthermore, if the interviewee says they've been raped, the first thing an interviewing church leader should recommend would be to go to the police.
 

Houseman

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Arnox said:
Worse against those who actually abuse the rules, yes. Against the church, no. If church leaders are deviating way too much from prescribed practice then that needs to be investigated by those involved.
And do you see anything in the system that could be changed to lessen the number of incidents? Or just make it a standard form that people fill out?

If an organization keeps noticing that it's policies are being violated, it really does make them look bad if they keep on allowing it to happen without doing anything to stop it. If people keep on stealing from the till, install cameras. If people keep taking unauthorized actions, make it so that the action requires approval from authorized parties, perhaps with a physical key that they hold (e.g. a minor selling alcohol needs a manager to physically insert a key into the computer at Walmart)

You can't expect people to be perfect and follow the rules 100% of the time. You have to structure things in such a way that the number of things you can do wrong are minimized. If you don't, then yes, the organization is complicit. "Well, we told them not to, but they went ahead and did it anyway", doesn't really cut it the 100th time.
 

Signa

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Some of the questions remind me of what happens when you get "evaluated" in Scientology.
 
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